Palestine

[cstand]

41 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I answered you. Calm down. 

But I've argued with Zionists before and this is similar. You reach a point where they can't see anything but you as antisemetic, Gaza as a terrorist breeding ground, occupied land as their rightful land by ancient text and fully support Netenyahu. These are the type of people in Netenyahu's party who say that all Palestinians are complicit and an even harder approach should be taken. 

I can't argue with that. That's like arguing against Hamas who want Israel wiped from the map. It's extremes. 

I can't continue to argue with you when you say "disputed land" and keep claiming everyone is motivated by a hatred of Jews. I just have to be like , ok. Whatever. No point trying to convince you. 

@Revposted a video which was pretty balanced. Showed some understanding of Israel's threats. 

I said before, I'm not biased because I'm Arab or Muslim. I'm biased because I see the disproportionate suffering. If somehow balanced was restored and tipped the other way then I'd be supporting Israel's right to exist under Arab threat. 

If I'm anti anything then I'm anti American foreign policy. They're responsible for so much destabilization. Russia too but they're obviously less successful than America at pursuing their goal. 

There's not much more I can say to you now. I think that covers everything and it's become like the nonsense arguments between a Muslim who denies Israel's entire existence and a Zionist Jew. Not as extreme. But you get the gist 

I thank you for your reply.

I am very happy for Jews and Palestinians to live in peace together in any disputed land. 

Just for the record I am against any pro Israeli marches and any Israeli flag waving as well. 

Also I do not support the US either especially after the Iraq war. 
 

I Really wished I could come up with an answer to end it all but I can see nothing on the horizon. 
 

[Alph]

37 minutes ago, cstand said:

Natasha Hausdorff 5 months prior to the present conflict.

Cambridge union debate.

 

An Israeli lawyer. I'm good mate. Honestly. 

I could post UN resolutions and votes. Their appeals to ICJ. The ruling on Israel's wall by the ICJ and the objections by Israel's allies. Israel has failed to show to hearings and has ratified but not signed certain agreements. The Rome Statute for example was no longer supported by USA, Russia and Israel. 

This is all besides the general human decency you shouldn't be looking for loopholes in to take land that belongs to other people. Innocent people living off that land. Not Hamas. Not Israel. Just people. 

But we are going around in circles here. I don't want to argue with someone with such extreme views.

My view isn't extreme. I don't deny Israel's existence. I don't deny it's right to defend itself. I don't deny it exists in a hostile part of the world. I don't deny it's the most democratic nation. 

I just despise the condition it forces on Palestinians. Not Hamas, but Palestinians. 

[Alph]

6 minutes ago, cstand said:

I thank you for your reply.

I am very happy for Jews and Palestinians to live in peace together in any disputed land. 

Just for the record I am against any pro Israeli marches and any Israeli flag waving as well. 

Also I do not support the US either especially after the Iraq war. 
 

I Really wished I could come up with an answer to end it all but I can see nothing on the horizon. 
 

Sheeet, there's common ground there. 🤣 🤣

[Ram-Alf]

Hands up anyone who was surprised by yesterdays arrests in London, Maybe our press, Or our Government, The Police who were sent from forces around the UK, The marchers perhaps, Even those trying to do their every day work.

The press stoked all this up and got the headlines they wanted, I pretty much read a lot of Braverman's rhetoric this last week, She's the home Secretary and to the right of the party, She used words that some and our press used against her, We live in times where a loose word or an unfortunate action is stamped on and ridiculed.

The organisers of the protest got what they wanted...headlines that were wanted on a day that should have been left alone...imo, The Police got the headlines they didn't want but agreed to the march/protest.

Have you ever thought...we've been played 🙄  

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, The Last Post said:

 Have you ever thought...we've been played 🙄  

The problem here is that the media are now addicted to polarising issues in order to survive. If they can create a "them and us" scenario and get both sides arguing like crazy about it, their ad counters spin like a money machine

But, what I've observed on this issue is that actually, the majority of people have settled on a consensus that war is bad, killing is bad and that there ought to be a concerted effort from our governments to try and broker some peace. Not wave through the idea of the Israeli "defence" strategy continual indiscriminate killing of children, as somehow being a proportionate response.

It's obvious in this thread. We are usually at each others throats over stuff but look at which posts are getting the most cheers and likes. 

There is no media incentive to report on the consensus. Depressing

Edited November 12, 2023 by Stive Pesley

[uttoxram75]

23 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

So Tommy Robinson and his right wing thug mates have got involved in counter protests and are fighting with the police and chanting "England Til I Die"

I can't work out what their angle is here - counter to what? The peaceful march is an anti-war one. So he's....pro war?

 

Proud to see the Wetherspoons Light Infantry protecting us yesterday....

[Stive Pesley]

Oh hello - would this surprise anyone?

Quote

 Israel granted 12 licences to six companies to explore for natural gas off the country's Mediterranean coast on October 30th. This is the latest venture to exploit one of several gas fields discovered on the Mediterranean coast over recent decades, aiming to solve Israel’s energy dependency and, crucially, Europe’s supplies. 

The total oil and gas reserves were valued at a staggering $524 billion in 2019. But Israel does not have sole legal entitlement to the $524 billion, according to a UN report published in the same year. Not only is some of the $524 billion sourced from within the Occupied Territory of Palestine, much of the rest sits outside national borders in the deep sea, and thus should be shared with all relevant parties. The report questions the national right to these resources given they took millions of years to form—and that Palestinians occupied the whole territory until Israel’s recent formal creation.

https://www.planetcritical.com/p/everybody-wants-gazas-gas

[Comrade 86]

14 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Oh hello - would this surprise anyone?

https://www.planetcritical.com/p/everybody-wants-gazas-gas

Think this was mentioned earlier in the thread, but with the pattern of the Israeli landgrab becoming clearer, questions will inevitably be asked. Have to say that already, this has some disturbing similarities to 9/11 and the subsequent invasion of Iraq. 

[Alph]

And then you've got the crown prince of Saudi Arabia pretending he cares. Research him. Nice bloke. 

The Saudis are dangling the carrot to Israel. The "peace corridor". Kerching! 

They won't mind the leverage they'd gain over Iran either. 

This is why there will never be peace. American allies, Iran, Saudi, Russia.... They play chess like this. 

[Ram-Alf]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

 

This is why there will never be peace. American allies, Iran, Saudi, Russia.... They play chess like this. 

And we know who the Pawns are 😡

[ramit]

11 hours ago, The Last Post said:

And we know who the Pawns are 😡

A ramit rant

The hard truth is that people are pawns because they allow themselves to be.  The victim is not innocent of being victimized is another way to put it and just writing that will have some up in arms in outrage, but it is true none the less.  We choose to submit to power, we allow governments to treat us like property to do with as they please and when they do we place the blame on them, when it is really our own fault, for we have the true power when we stand together, we get our way when we unite and take collective responsibility for the planet we share and how it is governed.

But here lies the problem, we collectively avoid responsibility, it is convenient for us to have someone else than ourselves to blame, politicians, industrialists, media, generals.  We either change ourselves or continue to moan about the state of the world as we repeatedly fall for the divide and rule methods placed against us.  With all our problems of division, we still have much more in common than divides us.

Imagine if war is declared and no one shows up.

[Crewton]

Braverman has been unsurprisingly sacked, which is just what she wanted. Another leadership battle in the conservative party is therefore, no doubt, underway, FFS 🙄

[sage]

7 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Braverman has been unsurprisingly sacked, which is just what she wanted. Another leadership battle in the conservative party is therefore, no doubt, underway, FFS 🙄

I'm heartbroken that they're about to tear themselves apart.

Heartbroken I tell you.

[Grumpy Git]

2 minutes ago, sage said:

I'm heartbroken that they're about to tear themselves apart.

Heartbroken I tell you.

And cnut in chief is away in the jungle, shame.

[Gaspode]

23 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Braverman has been unsurprisingly sacked, which is just what she wanted. Another leadership battle in the conservative party is therefore, no doubt, underway, FFS 🙄

That was the suggestion lfrom some political commentators ast week - force Sunak to sack her and then be free to criticise him to the point of triggering a leadership election - though if she thinks anyone vaguely sane would vote for her, she's even more deluded than it first appeared.....

[Grumpy Git]

1 minute ago, Gaspode said:

....... though if she thinks anyone vaguely sane would vote for her, she's even more deluded than it first appeared.....

Unfortunately, you're misguided.

I'm not sure those who would have much between their ears, but they still get to vote.

[Crewton]

1 minute ago, Gaspode said:

That was the suggestion lfrom some political commentators ast week - force Sunak to sack her and then be free to criticise him to the point of triggering a leadership election - though if she thinks anyone vaguely sane would vote for her, she's even more deluded than it first appeared.....

She's an MP - thousands of people have already voted for her, and with her anti-migrant, authoritarian stance, she'll appeal to allot of "traditional" Tory voters as well as those to the right of traditional Tory voters, even some Red Wall voters for whom immigration is a key issue.

Don't underestimate the number of insane people there are in this country.

I just think it's untenable for any government to keep changing leaders without the mandate of a general election.

[Grumpy Git]

If Sunak had any gonads he'd have binned her off before she got to grandstand with a wreath yesterday. 😡

 

[Ram-Alf]

9 hours ago, ramit said:

A ramit rant

 

But here lies the problem, we collectively avoid responsibility, it is convenient for us to have someone else than ourselves to blame, politicians, industrialists, media, generals.  We either change ourselves or continue to moan about the state of the world as we repeatedly fall for the divide and rule methods placed against us.  With all our problems of division, we still have much more in common than divides us.

Imagine if war is declared and no one shows up.

There's an old saying Ramit..."you get what you pay for", We the people do get what we deserve, The trouble is most believe what we're told, Those in charge will lie their way to the top, The people do have a choice..."Anarchy" 67million live in the UK, The voting public have a choice, If they don't like the choice do they then hit the streets and remove those and if another incumbent lot come in and don't do as we were told...do we keep "rinse and repeat", Economy's, Stability public order would break down.

The wealthy will always rise to the top, The weak will sink to the bottom, Then there's those in the middle, Those who are getting on in life, Have all the tools at their disposal, Those that have bought all the T shirts that were on sale, Those that today are very comfortable and just criticize those on social media 😁

Life can be cruel, It can also be kind, But you have to be cute on how to play those who think can play you 😉  

 

[Ram-Alf]

43 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Braverman has been unsurprisingly sacked, which is just what she wanted. Another leadership battle in the conservative party is therefore, no doubt, underway, FFS 🙄

Have a letter printed that wasn't sanctioned by the PM and....oooops I've been sacked, A smile wider than the length of the river Thames on her face this morning, The back benches will be sharpening their tools...and here we go again