Palestine

[Ram-Alf]

Copied from twitter

Lt. Col. (R) Peter Lerner

@LTCPeterLerner

Follow

From the analysis of the

@IDF

operational systems, an enemy rocket barrage was carried out towards #Israel, which passed in the vicinity of the hospital, when it was hit. According to intelligence information, from several sources we have, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad is responsible for the failed launch that hit the hospital.

[Jubbs]

🤦‍♂️

[Jubbs]

For anyone believing the Israeli propaganda. 

[Mostyn6]

21 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

Copied from twitter

Lt. Col. (R) Peter Lerner

@LTCPeterLerner

Follow

From the analysis of the

@IDF

operational systems, an enemy rocket barrage was carried out towards #Israel, which passed in the vicinity of the hospital, when it was hit. According to intelligence information, from several sources we have, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad is responsible for the failed launch that hit the hospital.

 

7 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

For anyone believing the Israeli propaganda. 

Well here we go. They don't lie do they?

[ramit]

8 hours ago, The Last Post said:

Copied from twitter

Lt. Col. (R) Peter Lerner

@LTCPeterLerner

Follow

From the analysis of the

@IDF

operational systems, an enemy rocket barrage was carried out towards #Israel, which passed in the vicinity of the hospital, when it was hit. According to intelligence information, from several sources we have, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad is responsible for the failed launch that hit the hospital.

If this is the strike, then it is a large missile, much bigger than anything Hamas has

 

[Mick Brolly]

23 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

For anyone believing the Israeli propaganda. 

Who's lying Hamas or Israel 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

Hope I'm wrong, but this feels like it has the potential to lead to violence in other countries, including the UK. 

There are clearly extreme actions perpertrated by both Hamas and Israel, but conspiracy theories will abound about fake news and the evil MSM. Much better to believe a guy (they are always male) on youtube who watches other youtubers.

Worried that some attention seeking moron here will use it as an excuse to yet more innocent people.

I don’t think you are wrong and very much including the U.K. , the scenes on the streets have been quite scary ,

are we so far away from world war 2 and World War One that the vast majority in this country and others have no memory or concept of the horrors that can follow from the kind of intolerance and tribalism that is starting to take root in our society 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited October 17, 2023 by Archied

[Highgate]

Thinking about this from a purely Israeli point of view for a moment. The hamas attack was a shocking and horrible crime against their nation. There are very few people that don't think those members of Hamas who carried out the brutal attacks aren't legitimate targets for the IDF. That much seems to make perfect sense. 

There are others who also believe that any measures employed to destroy Hamas itself is now justified. Given that Hamas are attacking from and are dispersed within Gaza, they view a heavy Palestinian civilian death toll as an unfortunate but necessary side effect of Israel defending itself from an enemy of this nature. That's not my view but that's beside the point, many people support this position including, crucially, the US government. 

But just looking at this strategically, and leaving aside the dreadful human and moral implications for now, isn't this another lamentable strategic mistake in the long term? Won't this mass bombing of Gaza, create future generations of Hamas fighters determined to get their revenge when their time comes.  You could of course say it's been the decades of Israeli policy against the Palestinian people that have allowed Hamas to usurp Fatah in the first place.  Surely the bombing of Gaza in the last few days is just going to serve to prolong this war even further, deepen hatreds and actually strengthen Hamas, by guaranteeing them a whole new generation of eager recruits.  Wouldn't Israel have been better off, purely from it's own perspective,  just trying to tighten border security to make sure gangs of Hamas terrorists couldn't ever do something similar again. 

[ariotofmyown]

14 minutes ago, Archied said:

I don’t think you are wrong and very much including the U.K. , the scenes on the streets have been quite scary ,

are we so far away from world war 2 and World War One that the vast majority in this country and others have no memory or concept of the horrors that can follow from the kind of intolerance and tribalism that is starting to take root in our society 🤷🏻‍♂️

Not sure about World Wars in Europe over this. Most of the UK think both sides are in the wrong, we/Europe won't get involved.

We might see an increase in Terror incidents though, Islamic Terrorists and Far Right. Fortunately there are no Israeli terrorists about.

Yuval Noah Harari had a good point on the interview I listened to the other day. Whilst Liberal Democracy wasn't perfect, the direction of travel was a reduction in wars and violence.

These pathetic populists are overseeing increases in chaos and hate. Global cooperation is falling apart as nations become insular, led by awful, lawbreaking people.

This is where the intolerance and tribalism comes from. I don't know if social media is driving it or just amplifying it, but not sure how decent society changes the tide.

[ariotofmyown]

14 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Thinking about this from a purely Israeli point of view for a moment. The hamas attack was a shocking and horrible crime against their nation. There are very few people that don't think those members of Hamas who carried out the brutal attacks aren't legitimate targets for the IDF. That much seems to make perfect sense. 

There are others who also believe that any measures employed to destroy Hamas itself is now justified. Given that Hamas are attacking from and are dispersed within Gaza, they view a heavy Palestinian civilian death toll as an unfortunate but necessary side effect of Israel defending itself from an enemy of this nature. That's not my view but that's beside the point, many people support this position including, crucially, the US government. 

But just looking at this strategically, and leaving aside the dreadful human and moral implications for now, isn't this another lamentable strategic mistake in the long term? Won't this mass bombing of Gaza, create future generations of Hamas fighters determined to get their revenge when their time comes.  You could of course say it's been the decades of Israeli policy against the Palestinian people that have allowed Hamas to usurp Fatah in the first place.  Surely the bombing of Gaza in the last few days is just going to serve to prolong this war even further, deepen hatreds and actually strengthen Hamas, by guaranteeing them a whole new generation of eager recruits.  Wouldn't Israel have been better off, purely from it's own perspective,  just trying to tighten border security to make sure gangs of Hamas terrorists couldn't ever do something similar again. 

Great post, I think this is a great take of Israeli point of view...

 

[Mostyn6]

51 minutes ago, Mick Brolly said:

Who's lying Hamas or Israel 

The one who changed their own story

[Archied]

21 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Not sure about World Wars in Europe over this. Most of the UK think both sides are in the wrong, we/Europe won't get involved.

We might see an increase in Terror incidents though, Islamic Terrorists and Far Right. Fortunately there are no Israeli terrorists about.

Yuval Noah Harari had a good point on the interview I listened to the other day. Whilst Liberal Democracy wasn't perfect, the direction of travel was a reduction in wars and violence.

These pathetic populists are overseeing increases in chaos and hate. Global cooperation is falling apart as nations become insular, led by awful, lawbreaking people.

This is where the intolerance and tribalism comes from. I don't know if social media is driving it or just amplifying it, but not sure how decent society changes the tide.

Didn’t mean war in Europe over this conflict in particular more the direction of travel in terms of lack of rational debate and real hatred to others with different views and opinions 

[Alph]

23 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Thinking about this from a purely Israeli point of view for a moment. The hamas attack was a shocking and horrible crime against their nation. There are very few people that don't think those members of Hamas who carried out the brutal attacks aren't legitimate targets for the IDF. That much seems to make perfect sense. 

There are others who also believe that any measures employed to destroy Hamas itself is now justified. Given that Hamas are attacking from and are dispersed within Gaza, they view a heavy Palestinian civilian death toll as an unfortunate but necessary side effect of Israel defending itself from an enemy of this nature. That's not my view but that's beside the point, many people support this position including, crucially, the US government. 

But just looking at this strategically, and leaving aside the dreadful human and moral implications for now, isn't this another lamentable strategic mistake in the long term? Won't this mass bombing of Gaza, create future generations of Hamas fighters determined to get their revenge when their time comes.  You could of course say it's been the decades of Israeli policy against the Palestinian people that have allowed Hamas to usurp Fatah in the first place.  Surely the bombing of Gaza in the last few days is just going to serve to prolong this war even further, deepen hatreds and actually strengthen Hamas, by guaranteeing them a whole new generation of eager recruits.  Wouldn't Israel have been better off, purely from it's own perspective,  just trying to tighten border security to make sure gangs of Hamas terrorists couldn't ever do something similar again. 

They could have shown restraint and instead made life even harder for Gaza. Increase patrols, deny them even more rights, limit their trade even further. 

They could have upped their operations in West Bank (they've also done that now as well). Raids like the Jenin raid recently would perhaps have more justification. 

But no. They show exactly what Netenyahu and the IDF think of Palestinian people. "Human animals". 

I don't think they care whether this drives Palestinians to Hamas anyway. The long term aim is to subjugate them all. It's easier if they provide excuses. Either that or they think this is a smack on the bottom and everyone will fall in line?

 

[uttoxram75]

42 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Thinking about this from a purely Israeli point of view for a moment. The hamas attack was a shocking and horrible crime against their nation. There are very few people that don't think those members of Hamas who carried out the brutal attacks aren't legitimate targets for the IDF. That much seems to make perfect sense. 

There are others who also believe that any measures employed to destroy Hamas itself is now justified. Given that Hamas are attacking from and are dispersed within Gaza, they view a heavy Palestinian civilian death toll as an unfortunate but necessary side effect of Israel defending itself from an enemy of this nature. That's not my view but that's beside the point, many people support this position including, crucially, the US government. 

But just looking at this strategically, and leaving aside the dreadful human and moral implications for now, isn't this another lamentable strategic mistake in the long term? Won't this mass bombing of Gaza, create future generations of Hamas fighters determined to get their revenge when their time comes.  You could of course say it's been the decades of Israeli policy against the Palestinian people that have allowed Hamas to usurp Fatah in the first place.  Surely the bombing of Gaza in the last few days is just going to serve to prolong this war even further, deepen hatreds and actually strengthen Hamas, by guaranteeing them a whole new generation of eager recruits.  Wouldn't Israel have been better off, purely from it's own perspective,  just trying to tighten border security to make sure gangs of Hamas terrorists couldn't ever do something similar again. 

There's a debate out there that Israel do not want any chance of a two state solution, in any shape or form. Therefore an escalation of this magnitude plays into their hands and "justifies" a complete dispersion of the Palestinians. Indeed, it would explain their constant policy of settlers taking palestinian land and property by force.

I certainly don't know enough about it but the more you read, the more you fear the worst. If Hamas stopped any attacks or provocation then the international community would start to put pressure on Israel for a two state negotiation.

That seems to be why people are suspicious of the IDF's apparently slow response to the Hamas attack and origin of some of their (Hamas) funding and supplies.

 

As always, more questions than answers and it will come down to what you believe from what you see, hear and read.

[Carl Sagan]

Unfortunately, the first casualty of war is the truth. And it's pretty much impossible for us to verify claim vs counterclaim. In an age of photoshop and AI, where material is deliberately created to inflame a situation that is already at boiling point, people should think about what they're reading and not share it unless they have good grounds for believing it's true, rather than it just being what they want to believe. 

[ariotofmyown]

14 minutes ago, Archied said:

Didn’t mean war in Europe over this conflict in particular more the direction of travel in terms of lack of rational debate and real hatred to others with different views and opinions 

People have always been divided like that. We don't have leaders who lead anymore. Just enflame the situation for their own supposed gains.

Orban in Hungary is supposed to be a dark warning, not an example to follow. Thank god the Polish people have decided to change track.

[uttoxram75]

3 hours ago, Magicman said:

Fake I saw TV report all people walking about a few actors laying about but the hospital was in tact. 

People said the same about last weeks attack didnt they. 

I think all sides can agree that the media cannot be trusted to report impartially and truthfully. And thats the problem, we can only make up our minds on what seems plausible or most likely, not what we are told.

[ariotofmyown]

4 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

Unfortunately, the first casualty of war is the truth. And it's pretty much impossible for us to verify claim vs counterclaim. In an age of photoshop and AI, where material is deliberately created to inflame a situation that is already at boiling point, people should think about what they're reading and not share it unless they have good grounds for believing it's true, rather than it just being what they want to believe. 

Great post. The moral of the story is that blatant, shameless lying is just a bit of fun when it's something unimportant like national elections and votes, but it's not ok when it's people dying. Who'd have thought it would have ended up like this eh?!

I can't believe that the leaders who have gained power through these methods have proved to be useless. Unbelievable!

[Highgate]

17 minutes ago, Alpha said:

They could have shown restraint and instead made life even harder for Gaza. Increase patrols, deny them even more rights, limit their trade even further. 

They could have upped their operations in West Bank (they've also done that now as well). Raids like the Jenin raid recently would perhaps have more justification. 

But no. They show exactly what Netenyahu and the IDF think of Palestinian people. "Human animals". 

I don't think they care whether this drives Palestinians to Hamas anyway. The long term aim is to subjugate them all. It's easier if they provide excuses. Either that or they think this is a smack on the bottom and everyone will fall in line?

 

8 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

There's a debate out there that Israel do not want any chance of a two state solution, in any shape or form. Therefore an escalation of this magnitude plays into their hands and "justifies" a complete dispersion of the Palestinians. Indeed, it would explain their constant policy of settlers taking palestinian land and property by force.

I certainly don't know enough about it but the more you read, the more you fear the worst. If Hamas stopped any attacks or provocation then the international community would start to put pressure on Israel for a two state negotiation.

That seems to be why people are suspicious of the IDF's apparently slow response to the Hamas attack and origin of some of their (Hamas) funding and supplies.

As always, more questions than answers and it will come down to what you believe from what you see, hear and read.

It could well be then that there are powerful influences in both Hamas and the Israeli government that are very comfortable with a state of outright war.  That's a very bleak thought. 

[ariotofmyown]

10 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

People said the same about last weeks attack didnt they. 

I think all sides can agree that the media cannot be trusted to report impartially and truthfully. And thats the problem, we can only make up our minds on what seems plausible or most likely, not what we are told.

To defend the much hated MSM, most of the "news" here is just coming from tweets from either side. I'm not sure the media can really do anything to verify these claims. I'm sure they are trying to though.

The despised BBC is still one of the most trusted news sources in the world, although it's been carefully hollowed out by populist pressure.