How good is our squad?

[RodleyRam]

Our squad should be good enough for top six. The 'stats' used by the OP to suggest otherwise are a tad misleading IMO.

I don't think we have the players to play PW's preferred formation personally and I'm not 100% convinced the tactics or style of play has always got the best out of the players consistently (yet). Despite that, win our game in hand and we are 4th, which would prove my view that the squad is more than capable of finishing top 6. If we can get the best out of them individually and collectively then we could/should challenge autos.

I'm not basing this on in-depth statistical analysis, just based on what I observe and assessment of the qualities of the squad overall. As it stands, we are about where I expect us to be.

[CongletonRam]

33 minutes ago, RodleyRam said:

Our squad should be good enough for top six. The 'stats' used by the OP to suggest otherwise are a tad misleading IMO.

I don't think we have the players to play PW's preferred formation personally and I'm not 100% convinced the tactics or style of play has always got the best out of the players consistently (yet). Despite that, win our game in hand and we are 4th, which would prove my view that the squad is more than capable of finishing top 6. If we can get the best out of them individually and collectively then we could/should challenge autos.

I'm not basing this on in-depth statistical analysis, just based on what I observe and assessment of the qualities of the squad overall. As it stands, we are about where I expect us to be.

I wasn't trying to say that our squad isn't necessarily top 6. On the contrary, I think we are certainly top 6, top 7. The point I am trying to make is that I don't believe the squad is a shoe in for promotion as many fans seem to think we are, thus berating the manager for his lack of ability to get what they perceive to be his inability to get more out of it.

I started the thread as my annoyance was building with so many disgruntled posters.

I totally agree with all of what you have said and fully concur.

 

[Blondest Goat]

16 minutes ago, CongletonRam said:

I wasn't trying to say that our squad isn't necessarily top 6. On the contrary, I think we are certainly top 6, top 7. The point I am trying to make is that I don't believe the squad is a shoe in for promotion as many fans seem to think we are, thus berating the manager for his lack of ability to get what they perceive to be his inability to get more out of it.

I started the thread as my annoyance was building with so many disgruntled posters.

I totally agree with all of what you have said and fully concur.

 

Yes it seems to really annoy you that some people think the manager is bang average.  It's ok for you to have the same low opinion of the 22 or so players we have though.  

[CongletonRam]

36 minutes ago, Blondest Goat said:

Yes it seems to really annoy you that some people think the manager is bang average.  It's ok for you to have the same low opinion of the 22 or so players we have though.  

And this is what is wrong with expressing opinion on the net.

Nothing wrong with thinking the manager is bang average, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it is all I was reading on this forum. Warne out, Warne out. Clueless. Tactically inept. on and on and on. That is what I find annoying, the lack of balance.

I am trying to suggest, with my take on the stats, that the players are not necessarily players who will put the team in automatic promotion. That is not me saying I have a low opinion of them. They are all good professionals, but maybe not quite of the ability that many suggest.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by CongletonRam

[Ghost of Clough]

39 minutes ago, CongletonRam said:

I wasn't trying to say that our squad isn't necessarily top 6. On the contrary, I think we are certainly top 6, top 7. The point I am trying to make is that I don't believe the squad is a shoe in for promotion as many fans seem to think we are, thus berating the manager for his lack of ability to get what they perceive to be his inability to get more out of it.

I started the thread as my annoyance was building with so many disgruntled posters.

I totally agree with all of what you have said and fully concur.

How many people are saying "we're a shoe in for promotion"? Very few.

There are two main streams of displeasure.
1. Style of play often resulting in an inability to pass the ball to a team mate
2. League position being some way off challenging for automatic promotion. We're only 11 games in, but already 9 points off 2nd spot. Many would argue this isn't challenging for automatics.

One man is ultimately responsible for the first topic. He's the one who coaches the team and instructs them how to play on matchday. That criticism is therefore perfectly valid if those supporters do not enjoy the football on display.

When comparing a side to determine if they're overperforming or underperforming, budget vs league position is one of the main metrics. When looking at historic wage expenditure of clubs in this division, rumoured fees paid for players in the summer, etc.. it's very obvious that we have a 'top 3' budget. Since we're currently 9th in the table (7th on ppg), we're underperforming. People may disagree over the reason, but it still ultimately falls back on Warne.
- Some say Warne isn't getting the most out of this squad due to tactics, player selection, etc... = Warne at fault
- You say the players aren't good enough. Therefore, either of the following are the reason:
      - The recruitment team, which Warne helped to assemble, isn't identifying good enough players
      - Warne didn't choose the right players in the summer window
      - Warne couldn't convince the right players to join

[CongletonRam]

41 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

How many people are saying "we're a shoe in for promotion"? Very few.

There are two main streams of displeasure.
1. Style of play often resulting in an inability to pass the ball to a team mate
2. League position being some way off challenging for automatic promotion. We're only 11 games in, but already 9 points off 2nd spot. Many would argue this isn't challenging for automatics.

One man is ultimately responsible for the first topic. He's the one who coaches the team and instructs them how to play on matchday. That criticism is therefore perfectly valid if those supporters do not enjoy the football on display.

When comparing a side to determine if they're overperforming or underperforming, budget vs league position is one of the main metrics. When looking at historic wage expenditure of clubs in this division, rumoured fees paid for players in the summer, etc.. it's very obvious that we have a 'top 3' budget. Since we're currently 9th in the table (7th on ppg), we're underperforming. People may disagree over the reason, but it still ultimately falls back on Warne.
- Some say Warne isn't getting the most out of this squad due to tactics, player selection, etc... = Warne at fault
- You say the players aren't good enough. Therefore, either of the following are the reason:
      - The recruitment team, which Warne helped to assemble, isn't identifying good enough players
      - Warne didn't choose the right players in the summer window
      - Warne couldn't convince the right players to join

 

Agree with all you have said in bold.

But, I will say again, there are extenuating circumstances which I factor in which I think are important. I have already been through these in this thread.

Regarding the first part, those 'very few' certainly gave the most to say on this forum recently. It appears that those 'very few' think this squad should be contending for the 2 top spots and for the umpteenth time of trying to explain my comments, I am of the opinion that looking at the squad, that isn't necessarily realistic. Possible, but certainly not a given as some want to suggest by wanting the removal of the manager for the failure to be further up the league table and not looking like having a team that is capable of challenging.

I'm happy with things at the club in general, although I am the first to admit that the playing style is turgid and one of the worst I have seen at the club for some time, but I go back to those extenuating circumtances.

I just want to get behind the manager, get behind the players, and see where this season takes us. If we challenge at the top, hats off to the management!! If we are in the play-offs, great, that'll do me. If we narrowly miss out however, not the end of the world. Let's see where we are at the end of the season in terms of looking more like a team to go next season with a few more additions.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by CongletonRam

[RoyMac5]

22 minutes ago, CongletonRam said:

 

Agree with all you have said in bold.

But, I will say again, there are extenuating circumstances which I factor in which I think are important. I have already been through these in this thread.

Regarding the first part, those 'very few' certainly gave the most to say on this forum recently. It appears that those 'very few' think this squad should be contending for the 2 top spots and for the umpteenth time of trying to explain my comments, I am of the opinion that looking at the squad, that isn't necessarily realistic. Possible, but certainly not a given as some want to suggest by wanting the removal of the manager for the failure to be further up the league table and not looking like having a team that is capable of challenging.

I'm happy with things at the club in general, although I am the first to admit that the playing style is turgid and one of the worst I have seen at the club for some time, but I go back to those extenuating circumtances.

I just want to get behind the manager, get behind the players, and see where this season takes us. If we challenge at the top, hats off to the management!! If we are in the play-offs, great, that'll do me. If we narrowly miss out however, not the end of the world. Let's see where we are at the end of the season in terms of looking more like a team to go next season with a few more additions.

 

What extenuating circumstances when we have a 'top 3' budget? We could have added to the squad last season but Warne prefers a small squad. He has added 12 players this summer. What else could he have done? The buck stops at his desk. He's been here long enough, we are no better now than when he took over. How many more years will it take him?!

[YorkshireRam]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

What extenuating circumstances when we have a 'top 3' budget? We could have added to the squad last season but Warne prefers a small squad. He has added 12 players this summer. What else could he have done? The buck stops at his desk. He's been here long enough, we are no better now than when he took over. How many more years will it take him?!

This comment has popped up twice now, and it really needs the caveat of *wage budget.

We didn't spend a penny on transfer fees this summer when Charlton, for example, spent just under £1m on Alfie May. This is off the back of 3 years of this being a forced transfer policy as well. The last player we paid a fee for was Jozwiak!

Now WHY we haven't spent transfer fees is a question i'd love to know the answer to, but I highly doubt the sole answer is 'Paul Warne', which means there's more nuance to this than you'd like to suggest here. 

[Curtains]

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

What extenuating circumstances when we have a 'top 3' budget? We could have added to the squad last season but Warne prefers a small squad. He has added 12 players this summer. What else could he have done? The buck stops at his desk. He's been here long enough, we are no better now than when he took over. How many more years will it take him?!

That’s your opinion 

[Curtains]

3 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

This comment has popped up twice now, and it really needs the caveat of *wage budget.

We didn't spend a penny on transfer fees this summer when Charlton, for example, spent just under £1m on Alfie May. This is off the back of 3 years of this being a forced transfer policy as well. The last player we paid a fee for was Jozwiak!

Now WHY we haven't spent transfer fees is a question i'd love to know the answer to, but I highly doubt the sole answer is 'Paul Warne', which means there's more nuance to this than you'd like to suggest here. 

Of course there is 

[MadAmster]

Keep up decent away form and fix the inability to get round the parked buses at Pride park and we're well in with a shout.

We've had a lot of injuries to deal with as well. Leave NML and CH on the bench, neither has been on form this season, and give Smith, Fornah, Bird and Sibley, all of whom could form the basis of a successful DCFC for the next few years, the chance to gel and push on.

[CongletonRam]

31 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

What extenuating circumstances when we have a 'top 3' budget? We could have added to the squad last season but Warne prefers a small squad. He has added 12 players this summer. What else could he have done? The buck stops at his desk. He's been here long enough, we are no better now than when he took over. How many more years will it take him?!

Is that what Warne is to be judged upon?

He has a top 3 budget, so failure to challenge for a top 2 position is deserving of the sack?

I am also not in the camp that we are no better now than when we were when he took over.

[bcnram]

I am not a fan of Warne and was disappointed when the owner appointed him. In the most part (but not all) the football shown has been really poor. However, in his favour in terms of the budget, it could be that the owner has let him down with the promised budget (and I mean it could be, I don't know).

I am also not a fan of fans or one person who is a fan running the club, give me a set of sports investors any day. Of course I am grateful that Clowes saved the club, but won't be disappointed when he sells on.

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, CongletonRam said:

Agree with all you have said in bold.

But, I will say again, there are extenuating circumstances which I factor in which I think are important. I have already been through these in this thread.

Regarding the first part, those 'very few' certainly gave the most to say on this forum recently. It appears that those 'very few' think this squad should be contending for the 2 top spots and for the umpteenth time of trying to explain my comments, I am of the opinion that looking at the squad, that isn't necessarily realistic. Possible, but certainly not a given as some want to suggest by wanting the removal of the manager for the failure to be further up the league table and not looking like having a team that is capable of challenging.

I'm happy with things at the club in general, although I am the first to admit that the playing style is turgid and one of the worst I have seen at the club for some time, but I go back to those extenuating circumtances.

I just want to get behind the manager, get behind the players, and see where this season takes us. If we challenge at the top, hats off to the management!! If we are in the play-offs, great, that'll do me. If we narrowly miss out however, not the end of the world. Let's see where we are at the end of the season in terms of looking more like a team to go next season with a few more additions.

What are those extenuating circumstances which cannot be attributed to a person or group of people?
As it is your belief that this is a squad which should only be competing for top 6 (as suggested by "top 6 / top 7 squad"), what do you believe are the reasons for that? 

56 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

This comment has popped up twice now, and it really needs the caveat of *wage budget.

We didn't spend a penny on transfer fees this summer when Charlton, for example, spent just under £1m on Alfie May. This is off the back of 3 years of this being a forced transfer policy as well. The last player we paid a fee for was Jozwiak!

Now WHY we haven't spent transfer fees is a question i'd love to know the answer to, but I highly doubt the sole answer is 'Paul Warne', which means there's more nuance to this than you'd like to suggest here. 

May's fee is believed to be around the £250k mark. Even when factoring in our "no upfront fees" vs other clubs " may be up to fees", we will have a top 3 budget. Charlton and Portsmouth will be the two other clubs closest to us financially, whilst all others will be lower.

Whilst we haven't paid a fee for players prior to this season, we do still have players of value. Cashin was on the verge of being a £3m player, whilst we had rejected offers for Bird. Cashin would have been the joint 5th most expensive English 3rd Division CB of all time, ahead of the likes of Maguire, Holding and Konsa.

50 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

Keep up decent away form and fix the inability to get round the parked buses at Pride park and we're well in with a shout.

We've had a lot of injuries to deal with as well. Leave NML and CH on the bench, neither has been on form this season, and give Smith, Fornah, Bird and Sibley, all of whom could form the basis of a successful DCFC for the next few years, the chance to gel and push on.

I mostly agree, apart from the part about 32 year old Smith being the basis for the next few years.

29 minutes ago, CongletonRam said:

Is that what Warne is to be judged upon?

He has a top 3 budget, so failure to challenge for a top 2 position is deserving of the sack?

I am also not in the camp that we are no better now than when we were when he took over.

The people already calling for the sack believe he isn't capable of getting the team in a position to challenge for top 2. If we finish 3rd on 96 points and lose the Playoff Final, I doubt he would get the sack. Sneak in to the top 6 on the last day of the season and still lose in the Playoffs likely would result in the sack.

Under Rosenior, we were 7th with a clear style of play, which needed minor tweaks and a couple of additions in January to be a serious contender. A year on under Warne and we still sit outside of the top 6, mostly playing undesirable football, requiring a number of new signings to suit ANY effective system. We have also lost a very promising young player (Knight). I struggle to find any argument to suggest our first team squad is in a better shape now than this time last year.

[Ambitious]

The squad as it stands is probably the most experienced and deepest in terms of quality in the league. I really struggle to see any other team in the division as comparable. 

Oxford finished two points from the relegation zone last season, had very little budget to make adjustments and have managed to improve significantly to the point where they are now (on current form) a better team than us. I would put that down to Liam Manning, who is a good manager. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that we aren't working at an optimum efficiency - some players aren't performing as expected, the recruitment could've been a lot better and the coaching could be a lot more effective. I do feel like we're improving, generally, but there are some fundamental issues within the club that aren't going to see us become the next Brentford, Brighton, etc. 

You could see with the approach adopted by Sunderland and Ipswich that they were putting processes in place with a long-term vision and each decision was meticulously thought out. It's worked out well for them and they're going really strong this season. I don't feel like we have that level of vision, work-ethic or competency at the club to achieve at the same level.

[YorkshireRam]

15 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

May's fee is believed to be around the £250k mark. Even when factoring in our "no upfront fees" vs other clubs " may be up to fees", we will have a top 3 budget. Charlton and Portsmouth will be the two other clubs closest to us financially, whilst all others will be lower.

Not a fan of that rhetoric. If you're going to make claims with specifics like ''top 3'', you need some empirical data to back that up. The 3 relegated clubs may have retained players whose wages exceed ours- I don't know, but that's the point. Attempting to use an unqualified claim like that as a stick to beat Warne with isn't a great look...

Also in your final paragraph earlier- why is Warne the singular factor in whether a player decides to join? Money could be a factor ie. the rumoured Rhodes incident. There's so many factors outside Warne's control, why are you linking everything back to him? Stating ''it still ultimately falls back on Warne'' is untrue, and just reduces the credibility of your overall argument because it just appears reductionist. 

[Mick Brolly]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

What extenuating circumstances when we have a 'top 3' budget? We could have added to the squad last season but Warne prefers a small squad. He has added 12 players this summer. What else could he have done? The buck stops at his desk. He's been here long enough, we are no better now than when he took over. How many more years will it take him?!

Can somebody please list the table in order of budgets for our division I can't find them anywhere

[Jimbo Ram]

4 hours ago, CongletonRam said:

And this is what is wrong with expressing opinion on the net.

Nothing wrong with thinking the manager is bang average, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it is all I was reading on this forum. Warne out, Warne out. Clueless. Tactically inept. on and on and on. That is what I find annoying, the lack of balance.

I am trying to suggest, with my take on the stats, that the players are not necessarily players who will put the team in automatic promotion. That is not me saying I have a low opinion of them. They are all good professionals, but maybe not quite of the ability that many suggest.

 

Are that many calling for Warne’s head? I just want to see better, more entertaining and enjoyable football along with players playing in their best positions 😊

[StarterForTen]

17 hours ago, Mick Brolly said:

Can somebody please list the table in order of budgets for our division I can't find them anywhere

Not sure there is a list but I do play golf (occasionally, and very badly) with a League One chief executive and last time out he told me he knew of at least three clubs who are spending very heavily this season and Derby (and his club) are not one of them. He said that Oxford's budget is eye-watering.

He told me that his club tried to sign a player in the summer but were blown out of the water on wages by Oxford.

[sage]

4 minutes ago, StarterForTen said:

Not sure there is a list but I do play golf (occasionally, and very badly) with a League One chief executive and last time out he told me he knew of at least three clubs who are spending very heavily this season and Derby (and his club) are not one of them. He said that Oxford's budget is eye-watering.

He told me that his club tried to sign a player in the summer but were blown out of the water on wages by Oxford.

Spending heavily compared to other clubs or spending heavily compared to their income or previous spending.

1k on an attendance is worth around 400k per annum in income. They would have to invest over £5m to match our budget.