Accrington Stanley (H) Mon 2nd Jan, 3pm KO

[Comrade 86]

12 hours ago, DanS1992 said:

I am not much of a gambling man but I should have took that bet @86 Hair Islands?

He's been recalled not shown the door ?

[Alty_Ram]

Ideally (obviously) we want to be building a team around these players, but much as I'd hate to lose either of these two, ultimately if the player wants to go then we may as well sell as you don't want unhappy players going through the motions or pissed off because their big move was blocked. At all levels of the footballing tree there's an awful lot of badge-kissing these days followed by jumping ship for more money and though I'm absolutely not saying that these two in any way are those sorts of players, but if someone offers decent money, tripple wages and a nice wad for their agent then it'll almost certainly happen.

These lads (Bird and Knight) have a clear love for the club but money talks as it does for all of us. As fans we're all emotionally invested in the club and it's sometimes difficult to see it from their side. I've got very fond memories of some places that I've worked (one in particular) and still hold the people there in very high regard but I got offered quite a bit more money and couldn't really turn it down. Footballers at the top and lower reaches of the EPL and EFL will switch clubs for wages that are several times what they may have been earning, not just a healthy pay rise which is what I got.

We want to think that these players will hang around but as a league 1 side the reality is that it is largely out of our hands. DC has the clubs best interests at heart and will undoubtedly resist insulting offers and back his manager's stance on the players that he wants to keep but Warne is a realist too and has always been at clubs where if the right offer comes in then it is right and sensible to sell. What DC hopefully brings is no imperative to sell and an ability to hold out for the players value and if it doesn't happen then so be it, they remain as Derby players. We seem to have had our pants pulled down for years on transfers due to constantly living life on the financial edge and proper money for any departing star players would be very welcome to help the manager rebuild and will help negotiations with the EFL re budgets.

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, Alty_Ram said:

We want to think that these players will hang around but as a league 1 side the reality is that it is largely out of our hands. DC has the clubs best interests at heart and will undoubtedly resist insulting offers and back his manager's stance on the players that he wants to keep but Warne is a realist too and has always been at clubs where if the right offer comes in then it is right and sensible to sell. What DC hopefully brings is no imperative to sell and an ability to hold out for the players value and if it doesn't happen then so be it, they remain as Derby players. We seem to have had our pants pulled down for years on transfers due to constantly living life on the financial edge and proper money for any departing star players would be very welcome to help the manager rebuild and will help negotiations with the EFL re budgets.

What would be the point in selling this season as we won't be allowed to spend the money? Better to keep all the players and aim for promotion.

[Alty_Ram]

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

What would be the point in selling this season as we won't be allowed to spend the money? Better to keep all the players and aim for promotion.

No, I know what you mean but I guess there are a number of factors and it would depend on what sort of value we feel would be offered with a longer contract still in place vs waiting and hoping we get promoted and possibly the player being more likely to stay. Also, are we talking about an offer from am established EPL club or just a mid-table Champ club. I guess we don't know what sort of interest and what sort of numbers are (or would be) involved.

As I say, at least with DC in charge, we are not in territory where we are just easy pickings for chancer clubs with derisory offers. We've had a bellyful of that in the last couple of years ?

[kevinhectoring]

3 hours ago, YouRams said:

It'll be Bird and or Knight and I'd hedge my bets one or both are going. 

 JK could be earning a PL salary. And with the option we'll get several million. If the right offer comes in he'll go I reckon. Think Bird will stay - just now he's not quite in the same bracket as Knight

[kevinhectoring]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

What would be the point in selling this season as we won't be allowed to spend the money? Better to keep all the players and aim for promotion.

to cover trading losses maybe - and might an exceptional sale allow us to tweak the business plan? 

[ilkleyram]

4 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

to cover trading losses maybe - and might an exceptional sale allow us to tweak the business plan? 

It might allow a tweaking in theory but there are two sides involved in that and by the sounds of it the EFL have refused to sanction any tweaking in this window despite it probably being the case that our current financial performance is better than the original business case outlined.

Who’s to say that they won’t hold that line for the next 18 months (presuming that it was a two year plan)?  The EFL could argue that they have creditors that lost out in mind, that there are plenty of free agents around, that we agreed the plan in the first place, that they want to see us continue to manage our financial affairs properly and now is too soon, that they want to see at least one year’s audited accounts - or they might still just be listening to boro boy.  Who knows?  But we might have to get used to shopping in the freebie market for a few more windows yet.

[therealhantsram]

8 minutes ago, ilkleyram said:

It might allow a tweaking in theory but there are two sides involved in that and by the sounds of it the EFL have refused to sanction any tweaking in this window despite it probably being the case that our current financial performance is better than the original business case outlined.

Who’s to say that they won’t hold that line for the next 18 months (presuming that it was a two year plan)?  The EFL could argue that they have creditors that lost out in mind, that there are plenty of free agents around, that we agreed the plan in the first place, that they want to see us continue to manage our financial affairs properly and now is too soon, that they want to see at least one year’s audited accounts - or they might still just be listening to boro boy.  Who knows?  But we might have to get used to shopping in the freebie market for a few more windows yet.

On the radio last night they did seem to suggest we would be allowed to spend money in the Summer. They didn't explain what that assumption was based on though.

[ilkleyram]

2 hours ago, therealhantsram said:

On the radio last night they did seem to suggest we would be allowed to spend money in the Summer. They didn't explain what that assumption was based on though.

You’re right, but therein lies the problem. We don’t know anything. I would hazard a guess that even David Clowes doesn’t know what the EFL will sanction in the summer - they might be more lenient/open to negotiation  if we get promoted for example. Or less.  Who knows? 
Perhaps the EFL don’t even know themselves yet.

I don’t think we should underestimate their desire to make an example of us to frighten the rest however well the Clowes ‘let’s get the EFL onside’ plan is going.  They’ve got a number of clubs relying totally on the largesse of their owners post Covid and they’ll be terrified that clubs won’t find saviours and/or more will go into administration. 

[Woodypecker]

The EFL won't necessarily have an incentive to allow any leeway to DCFC if The Rams' are bettering their financial performance predictions.

Indeed, if Derby do get promotion, what better than to defer any relaxations on the (now 4-year) embargoes we've had to negotiate?

That might suit a certain Boro parasite sitting on the EFL board, seeing DCFC struggle - or even get relegated straight away again with a weak squad - I'm a cynic and don't expect such people to turn a hair if Derby's recovery is prolonged.

Of course, DCFC would still be pulling in 25,000+ so we'd still be a good advert for the EFL whatever division we are in.

C O Y R

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Woodypecker

[Ghost of Clough]

4 hours ago, Woodypecker said:

The EFL won't necessarily have an incentive to allow any leeway to DCFC if The Rams' are bettering their financial performance predictions.

Indeed, if Derby do get promotion, what better than to defer any relaxations on the (now 4-year) embargoes we've had to negotiate?

That might suit a certain Boro parasite sitting on the EFL board, seeing DCFC struggle - or even get relegated straight away again with a weak squad - I'm a cynic and don't expect such people to turn a hair if Derby's recovery is prolonged.

Of course, DCFC would still be pulling in 25,000+ so we'd still be a good advert for the EFL whatever division we are in.

C O Y R

We're actually at 5 years of embargoes. The 6th consecutive season we've been under one. Admittedly, under varying degrees of restrictions.

Embargoes: 04/05/18-03/07/18, 06/03/19-11/07/19, early 2020-present

That's roughly 40 out of the last 56 months. It will finish at 7 consecutive seasons and 57 out of 73 months.

[uttoxram75]

11 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

We're actually at 5 years of embargoes. The 6th consecutive season we've been under one. Admittedly, under varying degrees of restrictions.

Embargoes: 04/05/18-03/07/18, 06/03/19-11/07/19, early 2020-present

That's roughly 40 out of the last 56 months. It will finish at 7 consecutive seasons and 57 out of 73 months.

We must be very close to being the most punished club ever while having the fewest transgressions.

Special message to Rick Parry and Steve Gibson....

 

[Ghost of Clough]

31 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

We must be very close to being the most punished club ever while having the fewest transgressions.

Special message to Rick Parry and Steve Gibson....

 

But according to some opposition fans we haven't been punished enough ?

[kevinhectoring]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

But according to some opposition fans we haven't been punished enough ?

And as usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle 

[Ghost of Clough]

5 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

And as usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle 

Does it? Name another club who has been punished as much as us?

Other clubs have had points deductions in two consecutive seasons, but didn't have anywhere near the restrictions on signing players as we have.

QPR were fined £42m, but part of that included wiping out owner debt, and still gave them a season in the PL and the money that comes with it.

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Does it? Name another club who has been punished as much as us?

Other clubs have had points deductions in two consecutive seasons, but didn't have anywhere near the restrictions on signing players as we have.

QPR were fined £42m, but part of that included wiping out owner debt, and still gave them a season in the PL and the money that comes with it.

.. and ten years to pay the £20M left after the owner's loan write-off. 

[Ram@Lincoln]

Then you look at Forest and Watford doing inter club trading between sister clubs. Watford bought 28 year old Hassane Kamara for £4m in January 22, sold him to Udinese for £19m in August 22, then immediately loaned him back. Like Plange with Palace, you usually see loan backs on young players to carry on their development and playing regularly. This guy is peak athletic age, that's just blatant cheating and moving money around to make up FFP. Forest similar with all their moves between Olympiacos.

[kevinhectoring]

4 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Does it? Name another club who has been punished as much as us?

Other clubs have had points deductions in two consecutive seasons, but didn't have anywhere near the restrictions on signing players as we have.

QPR were fined £42m, but part of that included wiping out owner debt, and still gave them a season in the PL and the money that comes with it.

I should have said ‘somewhere in between’ not ‘somewhere in the middle’

You’re better informed than I am when it comes to comparing cases and there’s a mountain of detail in each one. But we’re paying for rule breaches as well as admin.
 

We asked for it, MM was aggressive and underhand in his dealings w EFl, a rabid hippo in the undergrowth. The 100k fine was light, we were lucky on stadium valuation and our methodology for arriving at stadium rental (unchallenged by EFL) seemed to make no sense.  Despite the deductions, if we’d had a decent manager last season we’d have had a decent chance of survival. The player sales have been hard to take but with creditors getting 25% it’s hard to complain.  Collecting that much cash for hmg and spending it on players is alone enough to enrage other fans. Have other clubs done that over such a long period and got off more lightly? 
 

eFl played a very straight bat once Q were appointed - in fact they were scared $hitless we would go under and bent over backwards to avoid it. Before that the influence Gibson peddled was a disgrace

 Dont know how harsh the current business plan is but when you look at our squad It doesn’t look too bad. I’m enjoying this season and don’t feel hard done by

[Reggie Greenwood]

2 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

I should have said ‘somewhere in between’ not ‘somewhere in the middle’

You’re better informed than I am when it comes to comparing cases and there’s a mountain of detail in each one. But we’re paying for rule breaches as well as admin.
 

We asked for it, MM was aggressive and underhand in his dealings w EFl, a rabid hippo in the undergrowth. The 100k fine was light, we were lucky on stadium valuation and our methodology for arriving at stadium rental (unchallenged by EFL) seemed to make no sense.  Despite the deductions, if we’d had a decent manager last season we’d have had a decent chance of survival. The player sales have been hard to take but with creditors getting 25% it’s hard to complain.  Collecting that much cash for hmg and spending it on players is alone enough to enrage other fans. Have other clubs done that over such a long period and got off more lightly? 
 

eFl played a very straight bat once Q were appointed - in fact they were scared $hitless we would go under and bent over backwards to avoid it. Before that the influence Gibson peddled was a disgrace

 Dont know how harsh the current business plan is but when you look at our squad It doesn’t look too bad. I’m enjoying this season and don’t feel hard done by

The stadium valuation was done using the industry standard by a reputable company nothing lucky about it . 

[Foreveram]

20 minutes ago, Reggie Greenwood said:

The stadium valuation was done using the industry standard by a reputable company nothing lucky about it . 

And the EFL didn’t have to appeal the £100,000 fine.