Malcolm Ebiowei yeah? Gone to C Palace.

[bimmerman]

20 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Lost me mate. What does the cash we got for Plange have to do with this Ebiowei deal? I'm not talking about Plange save for the fact that he highlighted Ebiowei's move to Palace some weeks back and I agree that the cash we got for Plange was a fair deal, but what bearing does that have on Ebiwei's intended move?

The bit about setting a wanted fee so high they baulk at it and it goes to tribunal,and then trying to be sly about it

I was saying I disagree with it and they have helped keep us afloat,so in this instance as dcfc name is pretty much dirt at the moment,we should do the gentleman thing and agree a fee that's fair. They've been gentlemen to us in January/Feb, we should reciprocate 

[LeedsCityRam]

57 minutes ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

It’s always interesting of course. I like to hear different opinions, I’m just sick of this “everyone’s against us” mentality when when they boot has been on the other foot no one’s lifted a leg!

I particularly find it interesting that the clubs you suggest would’ve been against EPPP were in the main or more than likely Cat 2 academies who were busting a gut from then on to attain Cat 1 status.

You need to ask yourself why that would have been? Why would these clubs with a proven track record in producing talent suddenly want to invest more money, increase staff levels and give themselves a bigger liability to do what they were already proving capable of doing? To do this you need to look at the benefits of Cat 1 and what you get for your increased overhead.

1. It gives you increased contact time with young players, allowing more training time and education opportunity in house. This in itself will be a huge factor in any parents decision for their talented young son who has to decide between Derby and Mansfield for example as even though Mansfield may offer a clearer pathway to first team, most parents will consider the extra coaching hours as evidence that their son will be a better footballer. Not to mention that he will have the kudos of being a cat 1 academy player if he is released and needs other options. Lots more branches to hit on the way out of the Derby tree than there are from the Mansfield tree…. Already a good advantage to have in procuring young talent.

2. Much lower compensation to play if you see a young lad at 10/11 who has already been identified and worked with by a Notts County, Chesterfield, Mansfield or dare I say Forest? I don’t suppose for a second there would be any sentiment involved if the Derby recruitment team needed to flex their Cat 1 muscles and offer the player the benefit of their academy?

3. Much more compensation due of one of the super powers come calling and as fellow Cat 1 clubs can literally pay what they need to procure a talent. It may not be great but theirs more security than if you were a cat 2 Academy.

4. Most importantly - and it ties in with all the above - it increases your boundary on where young players can travel from to be eligible to sign for Derby County, increasing your scope to recruit players over the age of 12 into nearby areas of Cat 2 clubs such as Coventry, Sheffield Utd, Sheffield Wednesday, Birmingham or Crewe….don’t suppose their was much sympathy for any of these clubs who were having their best talent taken from their doorstep…Coventry and Crewe who have had their own financial issues over the years. 
 

It’s all well and good bleating about how Derby are being pillaged of their best talent when in a dire situation where they cannot protect themselves but as part of the food chain you have to understand that’s how it is or refuse to take part when the boots on the other foot. 

Isaac Hutchinson didn’t work out for us, but nobody was complaining about the financial free gamble we were taking when we took a 19 year old talent with 40 EFL games under his belt, from a league 2 club in dire financial mess who were forced to offload their brightest young player for free just becomes a bigger club saw an opportunity.
 

No one was concerned when our own financial problems denied Southend of any income simply because we could choose to not play him in order to not owe them anything….money they desperately needed and money they’d have no doubt got had they held on to a player and demanded an upfront fee…..

There has to be balance. It’s not perfect but the system is what it is. You can’t only bleat about it when it works against you. 

Good post Rava. And it is true we have exploited the rules in the past to plunder lower rated Academies (Bogle from Swindon for example). Just wanted to check a couple of the statements as wasn't previously aware until.you posted;

1. As per your point 1, is it true there are restrictions on the amount of time a Category 3 academy can spend on a young player (in terms of training/education) compared to a Category 1 academy? If so, how is that policed?

2. Re your point 4, definitely the case higher level academies can recruit from a wider boundary area? If so, it places Derby (and other centrally placed clubs) with a geographical advantage esp if they gave top tier status. Unless there is a dispensation I'm not aware of?

[Mucker1884]

Wouldn't a compulsory (percentage based) sell on fee just put every transfer fee up by the same?  Ergo, once it's settled down as being the norm, it will just be a sort of escalated inflation?

 

e.g.:
"Thank you for your kind offer, but we don't accept your £10m offer (We would have done before the new rule came in!).  We now want £12m, as we will have to pass £2m of that on to Derby County.  Take it or leave it!"

 

?‍♂️

[Ghost of Clough]

31 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Good post Rava. And it is true we have exploited the rules in the past to plunder lower rated Academies (Bogle from Swindon for example). Just wanted to check a couple of the statements as wasn't previously aware until.you posted;

1. As per your point 1, is it true there are restrictions on the amount of time a Category 3 academy can spend on a young player (in terms of training/education) compared to a Category 1 academy? If so, how is that policed?

2. Re your point 4, definitely the case higher level academies can recruit from a wider boundary area? If so, it places Derby (and other centrally placed clubs) with a geographical advantage esp if they gave top tier status. Unless there is a dispensation I'm not aware of?

There is a minimum requirement of contact time at each category level. There's nothing to say a cat 2 club can't offer as much contact time as a cat 1 club.

[Ravabeerbelly]

4 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

There is a minimum requirement of contact time at each category level. There's nothing to say a cat 2 club can't offer as much contact time as a cat 1 club.

I think you’ll find there is a maximum amount of time they can offer.

This increases as they get older and the maximums are higher for the higher categories hence the requirement / need for more staff and more full time staff.

For example a Cat 3 club would have a lead coach who is full time for the foundation phase which is 7-12. A lead full time coach for Youth Development phase which is 13-16. A Cat 1 club will have at the very least full time staff for 9/10, 11/12, 13/14, 15/16. Many will have a full time member of staff for every single school boy age group.

They will all have full time staff for the Professional Development stage which is 17-21 but cat 1 clubs will have several (18/23s lead and assistant)

[Ravabeerbelly]

45 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Good post Rava. And it is true we have exploited the rules in the past to plunder lower rated Academies (Bogle from Swindon for example). Just wanted to check a couple of the statements as wasn't previously aware until.you posted;

1. As per your point 1, is it true there are restrictions on the amount of time a Category 3 academy can spend on a young player (in terms of training/education) compared to a Category 1 academy? If so, how is that policed?

2. Re your point 4, definitely the case higher level academies can recruit from a wider boundary area? If so, it places Derby (and other centrally placed clubs) with a geographical advantage esp if they gave top tier status. Unless there is a dispensation I'm not aware of?

The full details are in here 

https://www.efl.com/contentassets/bb22b19c764b4c9b9b164e8d3fdb1ec7/ebook_efl-youth-development-academy-players-and-parents-handbook-2021-22.pdf

Pages 6, 7 and 8 give details of travelling regulations, contact time regulations and compensation values per year per age group for each catagory.

 

[Rev]

3 minutes ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

I think you’ll find there is a maximum amount of time they can offer.

This increases as they get older and the maximums are higher for the higher categories hence the requirement / need for more staff and more full time staff.

For example a Cat 3 club would have a lead coach who is full time for the foundation phase which is 7-12. A lead full time coach for Youth Development phase which is 13-16. A Cat 1 club will have at the very least full time staff for 9/10, 11/12, 13/14, 15/16. Many will have a full time member of staff for every single school boy age group.

They will all have full time staff for the Professional Development stage which is 17-21 but cat 1 clubs will have several (18/23s lead and assistant)

Access to sports scientists and physios is also increased, isn't it?

[Ravabeerbelly]

Btw, despite its shortcomings and loop holes in certain areas the EPPP was the very best thing to happen to English football in a very long time possibly in its history. 

The first crop of players to emerge properly from it would be 23/24 now possibly 25 in some cases…..those age groups were successful in age group international competitions. They were backed up by the year 2000 group who were World Cup winners and following on from that are the likes of Bird, Knight, Sibley…..

Our game and our academies are producing more talent now than ever before and it’s still improving.

[Ravabeerbelly]

5 minutes ago, Rev said:

Access to sports scientists and physios is also increased, isn't it?

Absolutely. 
 

The sports science, strength and conditioning and analysis departments are probably the biggest growth areas in all academies.

Kids of 9 by the Sunday afternoon already have access to the entire game they’ve played and can also select to watch only their involvements if they wish. 

Training sessions are recorded every session, player reviews are recorded and 9/10 year olds are producing PowerPoint presentations themselves to present to the coaches on what they can improve on and what they think are areas of strength!

Every player will have an individual learning plan that’s reviewed every 6 weeks minimum which is discussed and built by the player and the coach. 

By the time they are 12 they are already taken out of their school 1/2/3 times a week and taken into the football clubs for schooling alongside the football coaching. Invariably their exam results are better than school predictions.

The top clubs such as Chelsea get around the distance issues by putting players and their families into houses and private schools so that they are close to the training ground!!

[Ravabeerbelly]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

2. Re your point 4, definitely the case higher level academies can recruit from a wider boundary area? If so, it places Derby (and other centrally placed clubs) with a geographical advantage esp if they gave top tier status. Unless there is a dispensation I'm not aware of?

Definitely. Clubs like Southampton and Brighton who are both Cat 1 have 50% of their catchment area under water…..

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

I think you’ll find there is a maximum amount of time they can offer.

This increases as they get older and the maximums are higher for the higher categories hence the requirement / need for more staff and more full time staff.

For example a Cat 3 club would have a lead coach who is full time for the foundation phase which is 7-12. A lead full time coach for Youth Development phase which is 13-16. A Cat 1 club will have at the very least full time staff for 9/10, 11/12, 13/14, 15/16. Many will have a full time member of staff for every single school boy age group.

They will all have full time staff for the Professional Development stage which is 17-21 but cat 1 clubs will have several (18/23s lead and assistant)

My mistake. It was a long time since I looked at the rules ?

[Crewton]

5 hours ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

It’s always interesting of course. I like to hear different opinions, I’m just sick of this “everyone’s against us” mentality when when they boot has been on the other foot no one’s lifted a leg!

I particularly find it interesting that the clubs you suggest would’ve been against EPPP were in the main or more than likely Cat 2 academies who were busting a gut from then on to attain Cat 1 status.

You need to ask yourself why that would have been? Why would these clubs with a proven track record in producing talent suddenly want to invest more money, increase staff levels and give themselves a bigger liability to do what they were already proving capable of doing? To do this you need to look at the benefits of Cat 1 and what you get for your increased overhead.

1. It gives you increased contact time with young players, allowing more training time and education opportunity in house. This in itself will be a huge factor in any parents decision for their talented young son who has to decide between Derby and Mansfield for example as even though Mansfield may offer a clearer pathway to first team, most parents will consider the extra coaching hours as evidence that their son will be a better footballer. Not to mention that he will have the kudos of being a cat 1 academy player if he is released and needs other options. Lots more branches to hit on the way out of the Derby tree than there are from the Mansfield tree…. Already a good advantage to have in procuring young talent.

2. Much lower compensation to play if you see a young lad at 10/11 who has already been identified and worked with by a Notts County, Chesterfield, Mansfield or dare I say Forest? I don’t suppose for a second there would be any sentiment involved if the Derby recruitment team needed to flex their Cat 1 muscles and offer the player the benefit of their academy?

3. Much more compensation due of one of the super powers come calling and as fellow Cat 1 clubs can literally pay what they need to procure a talent. It may not be great but theirs more security than if you were a cat 2 Academy.

4. Most importantly - and it ties in with all the above - it increases your boundary on where young players can travel from to be eligible to sign for Derby County, increasing your scope to recruit players over the age of 12 into nearby areas of Cat 2 clubs such as Coventry, Sheffield Utd, Sheffield Wednesday, Birmingham or Crewe….don’t suppose their was much sympathy for any of these clubs who were having their best talent taken from their doorstep…Coventry and Crewe who have had their own financial issues over the years. 
 

It’s all well and good bleating about how Derby are being pillaged of their best talent when in a dire situation where they cannot protect themselves but as part of the food chain you have to understand that’s how it is or refuse to take part when the boots on the other foot. 

Isaac Hutchinson didn’t work out for us, but nobody was complaining about the financial free gamble we were taking when we took a 19 year old talent with 40 EFL games under his belt, from a league 2 club in dire financial mess who were forced to offload their brightest young player for free just becomes a bigger club saw an opportunity.
 

No one was concerned when our own financial problems denied Southend of any income simply because we could choose to not play him in order to not owe them anything….money they desperately needed and money they’d have no doubt got had they held on to a player and demanded an upfront fee…..

There has to be balance. It’s not perfect but the system is what it is. You can’t only bleat about it when it works against you. 

I think you're attributing far more to me than I've ever posted about EPPP. I mainly think that clubs who sign young players from clubs in the same or lower divisions should pay more realistic compensation fees and "add-ons" should be non-tradeable. As it stands, it makes operating an Academy a marginal benefit for EFL clubs and the end result could well be fewer academies and fewer opportunities for young players to develop. 

[scout's dad]

Is this what it’s come to- being Crystal Palace’s feeder club!!!

[KBB]

4 minutes ago, scout's dad said:

Is this what it’s come to- being Crystal Palace’s feeder club!!!

When we are a pretty well run, established Premier league club, with an exciting talented squad giving young creative footballers a chance to express themselves at the highest level, then maybe we might do the same. Until that day, better get used to it.

[Premier ram]

16 hours ago, scout's dad said:

Is this what it’s come to- being Crystal Palace’s feeder club!!!

i can think of a lot worse clubs

[angieram]

? I know he was only ours for a short time but I'm sad about this one. 

Was a pleasure watching him develop and I hope he goes on to great things.

[Mostyn6]

bet he ends up on loan at someone like QPR!

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

Didn't want to play here then. No future to sort as we offered a contract but it came down to more wages and the chance to tell everyone he plays for a premier league side - well on loan at Blackburn anyway.  Young players out of contract with promise can easily sit out training for a week or two to get a contract sorted and still have a multitude of options.  Lets hope Palace our football friends give us more than £1.99.  Not likely.

[BatRam]

Bit gutted as hes got a bright future. But im hoping we dont waste a loan on him this season. Plange was absolute garbage after he got his move away from us and then loaned back.

[Mostyn6]

10 minutes ago, CodnorRam said:

Bit gutted as hes got a bright future. But im hoping we dont waste a loan on him this season. Plange was absolute garbage after he got his move away from us and then loaned back.

though Plange wasn't that special before his move. Never surpassed "got potential" at any point.