The Ukraine War

[Ramarena]

Increasing reports of a second incursion by Ukraine, this time into the the Belovsky district of Kursk under the cover of darkness.

This group is to the east of the original incursion and the speculation is that they will head west to meet up with the original group, cutting off all the land between the two.

There is also some chatter on the Russian end, that a smaller group of Ukrainians has entered Belgorod oblast. However this seems more rumour based at present.

Russian channels are absolutely all over the place at this moment.

[Eddie]

2022: "The Russian military is the second most powerful military on Earth."
2023: "The Russian military is the second most powerful military in Ukraine ."
2024: "The Russian military is the second most powerful military in Russia."
 

[Comrade 86]

Can someone explain to me why Ukraine has now invaded Russia? Seems to me that two wrongs don't make a right and it undermines a good deal of Zelensky's criticisms of Putin, which before I get jumped on, I share.

What I don't get is how this benefits anyone. It seems to me to be a very dangerous game of brinkmanship as I don't share people's confidence that Putin would not resort to the use of tactical nukes. If he does nothing, then he's finished IMO, so what do Ukraine hope to gain? It has the feel of a very unsubtle proxy war to me and it worries me. Cornered animals will fight, after all.

Edited August 12 by Comrade 86

[Archied]

7 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

Can someone explain to me why Ukraine has now invaded Russia? Seems to me that two wrongs don't make a right and it undermines a good deal of Zelensky's criticisms of Putin, which before I get jumped on, I share.

What I don't get is how this benefits anyone. It seems to me to be a very dangerous game of brinkmanship as I don't share people's confidence that Putin would not resort to the use of tactical nukes. If he does nothing, then he's finished IMO, so what do Ukraine hope to gain? It has the feel of a very unsubtle proxy war to me and it worries me. Cornered animals will fight, after all.

If it’s followed very swiftly by real concerted efforts at peace talks then we may get away with it but if not you would have to be crazy not to be worried as to where this leads , massive help from the west to defend Ukraine territory and people we can spin , Ukraine going into Russia with our help has a whole different slant , let’s hope our so called leaders really know what they are doing because if not we could ALL be ducked big style

[Gaspode]

21 minutes ago, Archied said:

If it’s followed very swiftly by real concerted efforts at peace talks then we may get away with it but if not you would have to be crazy not to be worried as to where this leads , massive help from the west to defend Ukraine territory and people we can spin , Ukraine going into Russia with our help has a whole different slant , let’s hope our so called leaders really know what they are doing because if not we could ALL be ducked big style

Ain't that the scary bit - trying to avoid this becoming political, but the three main players from the West are a French bloke that's so unpopular with his own people that he'll do pretty much anything to look good; an American who seems to spend most of his waking hours asleep; and a Brit that is so indecisive it probably takes him 30 minutes to decide which pair of socks to wear (and they're all red) - if we're relying on them to guide Ukraine, we're sleepwalking into a disaster.....

Edited August 13 by Gaspode

[Archied]

29 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

Ain't that the scary bit - trying to avoid this becoming political, but the three main players from the West are a French bloke that's so unpopular with his own people that he'll do pretty much anything to look good; an American who seems to spend most of his waking hours asleep; and a Brit that is so indecisive it probably takes him 30 minutes to decide which pair of socks to wear (and they're all red) - if we're relying on them to guide Ukraine, we're sleepwalking into a disaster.....

Not gonna jump too deep into it as I’m trying to ween myself off watching the news and getting involved too much , it’s a mad scary world that seems to get crazier by the day , perhaps as a species we are just infected with evil and it’s getting harder to sort the good from the bad , it’s getting easier to see why people don’t want to bring children into the world so much now🤷🏻‍♂️

[Alph]

53 minutes ago, Archied said:

Not gonna jump too deep into it as I’m trying to ween myself off watching the news and getting involved too much , it’s a mad scary world that seems to get crazier by the day , perhaps as a species we are just infected with evil and it’s getting harder to sort the good from the bad , it’s getting easier to see why people don’t want to bring children into the world so much now🤷🏻‍♂️

Imam Adam Kelwick on LBC yesterday said that goodness is in everyone and it is like the sugar that sits at the bottom of a cup of tea. You just need to give it a little stir. 

Quite a comforting thought but there's a lot of people who are more like flasks.

[Archied]

52 minutes ago, Alph said:

Imam Adam Kelwick on LBC yesterday said that goodness is in everyone and it is like the sugar that sits at the bottom of a cup of tea. You just need to give it a little stir. 

Quite a comforting thought but there's a lot of people who are more like flasks.

Interesting, is it more the other way round eg the badness is in all of us waiting to be stirred with perhaps some having no goodness in them ? Personally I think fear can bring out the worst in us and we seem to be bombarded with fear provoking talk from all sides of every issue these days 🤷🏻‍♂️

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

10 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

Can someone explain to me why Ukraine has now invaded Russia? Seems to me that two wrongs don't make a right and it undermines a good deal of Zelensky's criticisms of Putin, which before I get jumped on, I share.

What I don't get is how this benefits anyone. It seems to me to be a very dangerous game of brinkmanship as I don't share people's confidence that Putin would not resort to the use of tactical nukes. If he does nothing, then he's finished IMO, so what do Ukraine hope to gain? It has the feel of a very unsubtle proxy war to me and it worries me. Cornered animals will fight, after all.

In purely military terms if Russia has to worry about Ukraine crossing the border then they will be forced to divert resources away from the front lines to protect the border. This is a tactic to take pressure of the front lines which are becoming bogged down to the point where Ukraine will not be able to break them, as Russia will just keep pumping manpower in. If they can't move the front line by hitting it head on they need to spread Russian resources out which will perhaps open up some gaps to exploit.

[Crewton]

10 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

Can someone explain to me why Ukraine has now invaded Russia? Seems to me that two wrongs don't make a right and it undermines a good deal of Zelensky's criticisms of Putin, which before I get jumped on, I share.

What I don't get is how this benefits anyone. It seems to me to be a very dangerous game of brinkmanship as I don't share people's confidence that Putin would not resort to the use of tactical nukes. If he does nothing, then he's finished IMO, so what do Ukraine hope to gain? It has the feel of a very unsubtle proxy war to me and it worries me. Cornered animals will fight, after all.

From the very start, Russia has attacked Ukraine far beyond the territories it claims as Russian, even trying to capture Kyev. It's flattened Ukrainian cities near the border of the disputed territory with no regard for civilians of every age. But Ukraine mustn't invade land along the border in order to relieve pressure on it's troops further south who are fighting wave after wave of russian attacks?

You talk of "two wrongs not making a right", but how many wrongs has Russia committed against Ukraine? Has Ukraine started kidnapping and brainwashing russian children yet? I don't think so.

Critics seem to be asking Ukraine to fight with one hand behind its back in a war it neither started or wanted. How is that fair?

The consensus on here seems to be that Ukraine should sue for peace and take whatever Putin will grudgingly allow it, including forever remaining a vassal state that would eventually see the complete erosion of Ukrainian culture and identity. Why would any sovereign peoples accept that?

[Comrade 86]

CBA

Edited August 13 by Comrade 86

[Ram-Alf]

23 minutes ago, Archied said:

Interesting, is it more the other way round eg the badness is in all of us waiting to be stirred with perhaps some having no goodness in them ? Personally I think fear can bring out the worst in us and we seem to be bombarded with fear provoking talk from all sides of every issue these days 🤷🏻‍♂️

One man protecting what he has, Another man wants what's not his, Mates come to help the protector the aggressor thinks he's onto a winner coz he thinks he's got bigger and better mates.

WW1 and WW2 has taught us nowt, When mates get involved from both sides it will only get worse before getting better while the dead stay dead. 

 

 

[Comrade 86]

14 minutes ago, Crewton said:

From the very start, Russia has attacked Ukraine far beyond the territories it claims as Russian, even trying to capture Kyev. It's flattened Ukrainian cities near the border of the disputed territory with no regard for civilians of every age. But Ukraine mustn't invade land along the border in order to relieve pressure on it's troops further south who are fighting wave after wave of russian attacks?

You talk of "two wrongs not making a right", but how many wrongs has Russia committed against Ukraine? Has Ukraine started kidnapping and brainwashing russian children yet? I don't think so.

Critics seem to be asking Ukraine to fight with one hand behind its back in a war it neither started or wanted. How is that fair?

The consensus on here seems to be that Ukraine should sue for peace and take whatever Putin will grudgingly allow it, including forever remaining a vassal state that would eventually see the complete erosion of Ukrainian culture and identity. Why would any sovereign peoples accept that?

Holy moly. I'm not advocating anything so you can climb down off your high horse. I'm as pissed at the Russians as anyone too. I simply asked what Ukraine felt they stood to gain and for some reason you feel the need to jump in two footed.

I'll leave you to it then, shall I! 😂

Edited August 13 by Comrade 86

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

11 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

Can someone explain to me why Ukraine has now invaded Russia? Seems to me that two wrongs don't make a right and it undermines a good deal of Zelensky's criticisms of Putin, which before I get jumped on, I share.

What I don't get is how this benefits anyone. It seems to me to be a very dangerous game of brinkmanship as I don't share people's confidence that Putin would not resort to the use of tactical nukes. If he does nothing, then he's finished IMO, so what do Ukraine hope to gain? It has the feel of a very unsubtle proxy war to me and it worries me. Cornered animals will fight, after all.

I presume they're thinking an incursion may pull Russian troops away from another area they are worried about losing within Ukraine itself.  Perhaps an easy corridor for further advancement. That's an assumption though.

[Ram-Alf]

13 minutes ago, Crewton said:

The consensus on here seems to be that Ukraine should sue for peace and take whatever Putin will grudgingly allow it, including forever remaining a vassal state that would eventually see the complete erosion of Ukrainian culture and identity. Why would any sovereign peoples accept that?

This is really a tough call Crewton, Sitting at home all posting while Men, Women and Children on both sides who do not have a say are being killed every day.

I'd fight till my last breath to protect me and mine, But beating the drum for sanity is an endless echo, It will come to an end...but when, Your post in it's entirety is spot on tho.

Last week I watched "Hero's of the Somme" where 51 VCs were awarded, On the 1st day Britain had 57,000+ casualties with 19,240 dead, Politicians start Wars the working man fight them...there's something wrong here

[Comrade 86]

9 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I presume they're thinking an incursion may pull Russian troops away from another area they are worried about losing within Ukraine itself.  Perhaps an easy corridor for further advancement. That's an assumption though.

Thank you for the rather more measured and informative response. That actually makes some sense. My concern is simply that it might prolong hostilities or give Russia an excuse to escalate further and I can't see how that would aid the Ukrainian people.

On a general note, quite why anyone that isn't screeching at the Ruskies is instantly categorised as a Putin apologist is beyond me, especially as if I had my way, the man would be dead. In any case, I'll steer clear of this thread moving forwards. 

Edited August 13 by Comrade 86

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

The consensus on here seems to be that Ukraine should sue for peace and take whatever Putin will grudgingly allow it, including forever remaining a vassal state that would eventually see the complete erosion of Ukrainian culture and identity. Why would any sovereign peoples accept that?

I don't think that's entirely fair. 

Early in the thread there was discussions about how Russia may have been provoked but nobody justified the invasion. Just gave reasons for why Russians might feel a certain way and how we could have handled it better. This included NATO expansion and groups like Azov. 

Ramit has probably taken the hardest angle on Ukraine but unless I missed it he hasn't called for appeasing Putin? 

I don't think anybody has suggested Putin should get his hands on East Ukraine? (I've missed pages though) Only that there exists a provocation that played it's part in Russia's invasion. (Not that Russia was minding it's own business since the collapse of the Soviet Union) So think that's an interesting discussion that's difficult to have if we think people are apologists for Putin? 

@Comrade 86was being genuine in asking how this Ukrainian counter attack helps. It IS an escalation (a necessary one I think most would agree). 

Weirdly and wrongly, for us in parts of Europe not threatened directly by Russia, there's a comfort in the direction of the war fizzling out to a surrender of east Ukraine. Putin is happy and goes home for 10 years. A desperate Russia/Putin is a bit more of a scary prospect. This is from the perspective that a Russian victory is inevitable. A Pyrrhic victory probably but a victory. Simply because if the Russians stick at it long enough then the military support for Ukraine will drop. 

[Comrade 86]

42 minutes ago, Alph said:

@Comrade 86was being genuine in asking how this Ukrainian counter attack helps. It IS an escalation (a necessary one I think most would agree). 

Thanks @Alph - that's all it was. Anyone taking time to read the post properly before going into launch mode would see my concern is for the people of Ukraine and certainly not Putin and the other Kremlin hardliners, though I have every sympathy for the poor lads conscripted against their will and sent to their deaths too. Furthermore, I'm not suggesting concessions, appeasement or anything akin to either, nor am I criticising Ukrainian efforts to resist the Russian war machine. As with Gaza, my interest is and always will be in lives being saved. It's called humanitarianism!

42 minutes ago, Alph said:

Ramit has probably taken the hardest angle

@ramit can look after himself, but whilst I don't agree with some of what he says, he's not the f****** enemy and should not be spoken to as if he were. On this particular thread, he's been jumped more times than Katie Price and it needs to stop.

Anyway, that's me done with this. My mood is dark enough already today, so it's best I leave before I say something others will regret.

Edited August 13 by Comrade 86

[Archied]

16 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

Thanks @Alph - that's all it was. Anyone taking time to read the post properly before going into launch mode would see my concern is for the people of Ukraine and certainly not Putin and the other Kremlin hardliners, though I have every sympathy for the poor lads conscripted against their will and sent to their deaths too. Furthermore, I'm not suggesting concessions, appeasement or anything akin to either, nor am I criticising Ukrainian efforts to resist the Russian war machine. As with Gaza, my interest is and always will be in lives being saved. It's called humanitarianism!

@ramit can look after himself, but whilst I don't agree with some of what he says, he's not the f****** enemy and should not be spoken to as if he were. On this particular thread, he's been jumped more times than Katie Price and it needs to stop.

Anyway, that's me done with this. My mood is dark enough already today, so it's best I leave before I say something others will regret.

I suggest giving the Paul warne thread a swerve too 😂

[Ram-Alf]

https://news.sky.com/video/what-is-ukraine-trying-to-achieve-in-their-invasion-of-russian-border-region-of-kursk-13196361