The Ukraine War

[jono]

2 hours ago, Highgate said:

Admittedly finding reports or opinions that really are coming from a neutral and balanced (as possible) position is becoming increasingly difficult on the internet these days.  

 

Absolutely.. it’s something that has really troubled me over the last 20 years. Somehow there used to be a voice of reason, journalists or organisations who had a certain eminance gris.. yes a leaning or sympathy slightly one way or the other but a voice of learning and rationale. It is a dwindling resource as the net has given a voice to everyone .. which is valuable on the one hand but has a dark side in that the extreme and persistent voices get the most attention because they shout loudest. 

[ramit]

10 hours ago, jono said:

So what you are saying is that was absolutely ok for Russia to invade the Ukraine with armed forces because of whatever political justifications you have given.
You are right .. we will never reach a consensus. Political arguments are one thing but in this instance Russia is the initiator of physical aggression in order to achieve its political aims. That fellow Ram is just plain wrong. As a “peace lover” you know that.
I also note that your banal riposte post ignored every single point and illustration I advanced. We could go back and forth, but you didn’t because your argument is weak and largely indefensible. 
 

I know there are sides to arguments but the minute someone sends soldiers with guns they lost the argument 

You act like Russia's invasion came out of the blue.  So what you are saying is that the eastern Russian origin citizens had no right to determine their future and deserved being attacked by Ukrainian army and killed by the tens of thousands of civilians in the war of 2014 in order to achieve political aims, yet according to you, Ukrainian authorities lost the argument the moment they took up arms against the eastern separatists. This gets confusing.

I have never claimed to support the invasion of Ukraine, I said I understood the reason for it, two different stances, you cannot honestly equate,

You have no cause to thump your chest as the morally superior side on this issue my man.

Edited July 11 by ramit
wording

[jono]

17 minutes ago, ramit said:

You act like Russia's invasion came out of the blue.  So what you are saying is that the eastern Russian origin citizens had no right to determine their future and deserved being attacked by Ukrainian army and killed by the tens of thousands of civilians in the war of 2014 in order to achieve political aims, yet according to you, Ukrainian authorities lost the argument the moment they took up arms against the eastern separatists. This gets confusing.

I have never claimed to support the invasion of Ukraine, I said I understood the reason for it, two different stances, you cannot honestly equate,

You have no cause to thump your chest as the morally superior side on this issue my man.

Slant your history and politics as you will.

i have a little list of 12 notable critics of Putin. 9 are dead, 1 serving 25 years for subversion and 2 in exile. 

You live in a twisted reality and fall foul of propaganda which you laughably accuse others of doing. 

The truth as I see it may contain flaws and inaccuracies but your version exists in the imaginations of despots and tyrants. 
 

[ramit]

8 hours ago, jono said:

Slant your history and politics as you will.

i have a little list of 12 notable critics of Putin. 9 are dead, 1 serving 25 years for subversion and 2 in exile. 

You live in a twisted reality and fall foul of propaganda which you laughably accuse others of doing. 

The truth as I see it may contain flaws and inaccuracies but your version exists in the imaginations of despots and tyrants. 
 

You wrongfully accuse me of supporting the Russian invasion, because I don't fall in line with your NATO loving agenda, that is dishonest and weak, but I won't hold it too much against you, you feel threatened by anyone seeing through the double standards of the west and it's aims, which indicates a less than defensible position.  What you call my imaginary version of truth is seeing things as they are and calling for peace and an end to military adventures from any side.  I suppose I should thank you for holding back on calling me a traitor.

[jono]

14 minutes ago, ramit said:

You wrongfully accuse me of supporting the Russian invasion, because I don't fall in line with your NATO loving agenda, that is dishonest and weak, but I won't hold it too much against you, you feel threatened by anyone seeing through the double standards of the west and it's aims, which indicates a less than defensible position.  What you call my imaginary version of truth is seeing things as they are and calling for peace and an end to military adventures from any side.  I suppose I should thank you for holding back on calling me a traitor.

I haven’t accused you of supporting the Russian invasion. I have accused you of failing to acknowledge Russia’s evident extremely violent aggression towards another nation. Where were the talks and discussions, the desire for peace then ?

I accuse you of failing to recognise that individuals who oppose Putin usually end up dead, whilst this is not normal practice inWestern Europe ( your only counter was over the poisoning which you said was botched ) . I do accuse you of failing to see historical parallels between Hitler’s Lebensraum and his recent actions.

Oh, and I don’t feel threatened at all. I enjoy the debate. I confess that this is an odd one but it is a discussion none the less. I remain completely puzzled by your ostrich like doggedness and amused by your attempted deflections. I don’t see you as a traitor just an individual who has been roundly duped by a sophisticated machine, that unlike the west cannot be criticised for fear of arrest and is unaccountable to its citizens. 
 

The only military adventure has been Russian so if you want it ended, let’s go back to pre the Crimean invasion and enter discussions with all parties … or is that not fair on the poor oppressed who have welcomed Russian liberators with garlands of flowers 

[ramit]

8 hours ago, jono said:

I haven’t accused you of supporting the Russian invasion. I have accused you of failing to acknowledge Russia’s evident extremely violent aggression towards another nation. Where were the talks and discussions, the desire for peace then ?

I accuse you of failing to recognise that individuals who oppose Putin usually end up dead, whilst this is not normal practice inWestern Europe ( your only counter was over the poisoning which you said was botched ) . I do accuse you of failing to see historical parallels between Hitler’s Lebensraum and his recent actions.

Oh, and I don’t feel threatened at all. I enjoy the debate. I confess that this is an odd one but it is a discussion none the less. I remain completely puzzled by your ostrich like doggedness and amused by your attempted deflections. I don’t see you as a traitor just an individual who has been roundly duped by a sophisticated machine, that unlike the west cannot be criticised for fear of arrest and is unaccountable to its citizens. 
 

The only military adventure has been Russian so if you want it ended, let’s go back to pre the Crimean invasion and enter discussions with all parties … or is that not fair on the poor oppressed who have welcomed Russian liberators with garlands of flowers 

Uhm yes you did.  I quote you:   "So what you are saying is that was absolutely ok for Russia to invade the Ukraine with armed forces because of whatever political justifications you have given."  Changing the subject by diverting to me supposedly cheering on big bad Putin, won't cut it and is just as false. 

The botched poisonings were not botched at all, they were orchestrated by those who gained by the political discussions that followed them, but you either cannot or will not see what is plainly in front of your nose and really Jono if that is your idea of realism, then we should just call this discussion over, for we are not miles apart but continents.

Denying the military reaction by Ukraine to the eastern separatists won't make it go away.

Edited July 11 by ramit
wording

[Crewton]

https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-plot-kill-arms-manufacturer-rheinmetall-ceo-armin-papperger-foiled-us-germany-cnn/

[jono]

7 hours ago, ramit said:

Uhm yes you did.  I quote you:   "So what you are saying is that was absolutely ok for Russia to invade the Ukraine with armed forces because of whatever political justifications you have given."  Changing the subject by diverting to me supposedly cheering on big bad Putin, won't cut it and is just as false. 

The botched poisonings were not botched at all, they were orchestrated by those who gained by the political discussions that followed them, but you either cannot or will not see what is plainly in front of your nose and really Jono if that is your idea of realism, then we should just call this discussion over, for we are not miles apart but continents.

Denying the military reaction by Ukraine to the eastern separatists won't make it go away.

Ah yes, it was more of a rhetorical question as part of my challenge to your argument but I can see that. Thing is though, even though you refuse to admit it, it is your opinion. I see you revert to Eastern Ukrainian separatists. The British took action against the IRA but the Republic of Ireland didn’t invade Ulster did it. ?
 

Again you ignore the killing of Opponents, You refuse to acknowledge the invasion ( of course I suppose it’s still a special military operation to de nazify the region 🤣)  Putin is big and bad; as evidenced by the trail of death he leaves in his wake. No diversion from me, just your stubborn refusal to engage when your false claims are challenged. The change of government in the Ukraine occurred when the people protested because the president caved in under Russian pressure, against the will of the people, and stopped the beginning of the process to join the EU. You know, that terrible expansionist organisation that is so threatening .. one that has built a family of peaceful but argumentative nations across Europe. One that has raised standards of so many kinds in the last 40 years. Putin knew the minute the Ukraine was in the EU his dream of a greater Russia would falter. He could not let that happen so he invaded. You need to stop watching Russia today and use your own mind. Russias Allies are … North Korea, Iran and the PRC and a bit of sympathy from India because they need to oil. That’s pretty much the lot. Do you rate those nations for their successes in caring for their people ? A dictatorship built on a personality cult, an unpleasant theocracy and a one party state … Good luck with that. I know where I live and I know that I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near those societies. 
 

You are right though .. this is a pointless discussion so I am going back to the transfer forum. 

[ramit]

11 hours ago, jono said:

Ah yes, it was more of a rhetorical question as part of my challenge to your argument but I can see that. Thing is though, even though you refuse to admit it, it is your opinion. I see you revert to Eastern Ukrainian separatists. The British took action against the IRA but the Republic of Ireland didn’t invade Ulster did it. ?
 

Again you ignore the killing of Opponents, You refuse to acknowledge the invasion ( of course I suppose it’s still a special military operation to de nazify the region 🤣)  Putin is big and bad; as evidenced by the trail of death he leaves in his wake. No diversion from me, just your stubborn refusal to engage when your false claims are challenged. The change of government in the Ukraine occurred when the people protested because the president caved in under Russian pressure, against the will of the people, and stopped the beginning of the process to join the EU. You know, that terrible expansionist organisation that is so threatening .. one that has built a family of peaceful but argumentative nations across Europe. One that has raised standards of so many kinds in the last 40 years. Putin knew the minute the Ukraine was in the EU his dream of a greater Russia would falter. He could not let that happen so he invaded. You need to stop watching Russia today and use your own mind. Russias Allies are … North Korea, Iran and the PRC and a bit of sympathy from India because they need to oil. That’s pretty much the lot. Do you rate those nations for their successes in caring for their people ? A dictatorship built on a personality cult, an unpleasant theocracy and a one party state … Good luck with that. I know where I live and I know that I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near those societies. 
 

You are right though .. this is a pointless discussion so I am going back to the transfer forum. 

You live in some fantasy land bubble my fellow Ram, blissfully ignorant of how the world really works, things are not black and white, just varying shades of grey.  Most western leaders bought and paid for is not a healthy situation you know, or the reality of the ever expanding military industrial complex.

Back to the transfer thread it is then. 

Edited July 12 by ramit
wording

[Stive Pesley]

It really is concerning how the next 12 months will play out when the US have an electoral choice between two befuddled pensioners (one a convicted felon)

Seeing Biden introduce Zelensky to the NATO meeting yesterday as "President Putin" was just terrifying 😬

[Alph]

Just now, Stive Pesley said:

It really is concerning how the next 12 months will play out when the US have an electoral choice between two befuddled pensioners (one a convicted felon)

Seeing Biden introduce Zelensky to the NATO meeting yesterday as "President Putin" was just terrifying 😬

He may be replaced by his vice president

"Donald Trump". 

Old genocide Joe is ready for the AIPAC retirement plan

[Gaspode]

3 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

It really is concerning how the next 12 months will play out when the US have an electoral choice between two befuddled pensioners (one a convicted felon)

Seeing Biden introduce Zelensky to the NATO meeting yesterday as "President Putin" was just terrifying 😬

Let's hope he doesn't decide to arm Russia against those nasty Ukrainians....

[Ram-Alf]

31 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Seeing Biden introduce Zelensky to the NATO meeting yesterday as "President Putin" was just terrifying 😬

God damn frightening too boot, Did he ever go on this Mans show  😁

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 hour ago, Alph said:

He may be replaced by his vice president

"Donald Trump". 

Old genocide Joe is ready for the AIPAC retirement plan

Not if that Putin fella who's Ukraine president gets in first.  I'm glad we defeated Medicare with Covid as well.

[Archied]

When was the last time a political leader came along in the west who actually inspired you rather than made you think wtf ?

[ramit]

19 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

It really is concerning how the next 12 months will play out when the US have an electoral choice between two befuddled pensioners (one a convicted felon)

Seeing Biden introduce Zelensky to the NATO meeting yesterday as "President Putin" was just terrifying 😬

If I thought he was in charge of much I would be terrified, but instead, that was darkly funny.  Am genuinely suspecting that the USA is being run into the ground as having served it's purpose, a dementia patient and a narcissistic sociopath in the forefront leaves little to be desired, eh. 

What frightens me is that there are greater forces at play, those who gain by war, recklessly playing with fire and people's lives to further perpetuate and take war up a notch or three, lunatics who took over the asylum.

Edited July 12 by ramit
typo

[uttoxram75]

6 hours ago, Archied said:

When was the last time a political leader came along in the west who actually inspired you rather than made you think wef ?

FTFY

[Archied]

6 hours ago, ramit said:

If I thought he was in charge of much I would be terrified, but instead, that was darkly funny.  Am genuinely suspecting that the USA is being run into the ground as having served it's purpose, a dementia patient and a narcissistic sociopath in the forefront leaves little to be desired, eh. 

What frightens me is that there are greater forces at play, those who gain by war, recklessly playing with fire and people's lives to further perpetuate and take war up a notch or three, lunatics who took over the asylum.

Please allow me to introduce myself im a man of wealth and taste 

[Crewton]

3 hours ago, Archied said:

Please allow me to introduce myself im a man of wealth and taste 

.... with a devilish sense of humour....

[Crewton]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-62208620