The Ukraine War

[Archied]

12 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Yeah...you are right power vacuums are potentially very dangerous.  Definitely not talking about the West attempting to remove him....just wondering whether his position within Russia may weaken as a direct result of this war. 

Again not suggesting taking out anyone...but as for climate change, Putin is the worst. China and India at least have plans for the future, that would, if actually implemented, make a big difference.  Putin is a climate change denier, has an economy based on fossil fuels...and he'd quite like Siberia to warm up a bit (the catastrophic amounts of methane that would release doesn't seem to bother him).

I think most of Europe has an economy based on Russian fossil fuels while pretending to be green with plans that don’t stack up??‍♂️

[Highgate]

17 minutes ago, Archied said:

I think most of Europe has an economy based on Russian fossil fuels while pretending to be green with plans that don’t stack up??‍♂️

Another potential benefit of this war I suppose, and I know it's unpleasant to start talking about benefits of something so horrible and unnecessary, but this war will surely hasten European countries rejection of Russian fossil fuels in favour of interlinked renewables with battery storage technology.

[Highgate]

27 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I just wish America and allies came under such intense scrutiny and one sided media reports. 

That's nothing to do with Putin or Ukraine or Russia. It's good to see the world unite against unjustified wars. Hopefully this can apply to other aggressive nations.

"Freedom and Democracy!" my backside. 

Freedom to choose America. Or be killed directly by them or by whoever they arm to fight you. 

Dcfcfans own Alpha Chomsky.  ?

You are right though.  It's pretty much across the whole world. A country's own media are generally really bad at holding their own country's actions to the same standard as the actions of foreign countries.  Even countries with a supposedly free press seem unable to do this adequately or fairly.  And the US is a particularly bad example.  Chomsky himself, despite being one of the most famous writers and intellectuals on the planet has been effectively banned from mainstream American media sources (TV sources that is) since the 1960s...all because he does what you say, intensely scrutinizes the actions of his own country. 

[GboroRam]

5 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

You're absolutely right, but I think it is all interconnected. Latvia and Estonia are not seen as Mother Russia, nor Poland etc. The one thing that any Russian will tell you, and has been echoed time and again in the past months, is that they will never again tolerate foreign boots on their land so if you appreciate they believe Ukraine is intrinsically part of 'Malorossiya' / Little Russia then it all connects. 

Just a thought, would anyone have sympathy if the UK decided to recreate the British Empire by force? After all it once was "ours". 

[Leeds Ram]

49 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

OK, if you say so. One comment re: power vacuums - see the back of the Taliban you say?

As for Russia, the gulags shut down long ago. I don't say that political opponents are dealt with most seriously but they have a thing called social media there, public opinion is absolutely out there and we have seen that the last few days. Public opinion is absolutely possible, maybe not via state media but that is known and recognised. It's not a police state but, hey, keep piling on those KGB / FSB driven perceptions if it fits the agenda.

and what is happening to those protesters? they're not being beaten up, or detained or arrested are they.... If political opponents are threatened or disappeared, if real genuine elections cannot take place due to vote rigging or due to political fear then that will influence how public opinion can be measured. You can't reasonably claim that Putin hasn't done any of these things because every half decent human rights organisation has documented it. The existence of protests even against an authoritarian and dangerous regime does not necessarily indicate a free society... 

Yes, there are levels and levels of political oppression. Russia is not North Korea for instance and it's not committing genocide unlike the Chinese but they remain an authoritarian illiberal state that routinely violates human rights and ignores the principles of self-determination and democracy via voting. 

[Anon]

On 28/02/2022 at 17:47, jono said:

You forget that here, and in the west in general when media supports the authority there are other media that take it to bits and ….nothing happens, they just have a slanging match … because we aren’t lead by despotic presidents for life. Even our monarchy is a servant of Parliament. 

I note we've decided against having the slanging match and taking the Russian position to bits and instead chosen to pull Russia Today from the air. Thank goodness we aren't ruled by a despotic president who controls what media we can view though.

[BaaLocks]

45 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

if real genuine elections cannot take place due to vote rigging or due to political fear then that will influence how public opinion can be measured. 

No, because for many (not all, tbf) they don't have the same frame of reference as you and I - in many parts of the west we've been taught since we were young that the greatest gift our country gives to us is democracy. Public opinion in Russia is not as directly connected to ability to speak out freely or not (even though for the average man or woman they absolutely can), it is more closely linked to the ability of the state to provide security (of many types), infrastructure, guidance and general benefit. It is one of the reasons the birth rate is so low in Russia, because inherently there is a belief that you don't need a big family to look after you in your old age, the state will do it for you. So, again, your values are not theirs and your statements are not representative of how they view many things and until many in the West take time to realise that they will continue to try to fix the problem from their perspective.

Feel free to reply (hey, freedom of speech and all that) but I think we're probably getting off topic a bit - title of the thread isn't really an analysis of Russian psychology.

[Stive Pesley]

40 minutes ago, Anon said:

I note we've decided against having the slanging match and taking the Russian position to bits and instead chosen to pull Russia Today from the air. Thank goodness we aren't ruled by a despotic president who controls what media we can view though.

Who took the decision to remove RT from the air? Was that a government decision? (genuine question)

 

[Alph]

52 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Dcfcfans own Alpha Chomsky.  ?

You are right though.  It's pretty much across the whole world. A country's own media are generally really bad at holding their own country's actions to the same standard as the actions of foreign countries.  Even countries with a supposedly free press seem unable to do this adequately or fairly.  And the US is a particularly bad example.  Chomsky himself, despite being one of the most famous writers and intellectuals on the planet has been effectively banned from mainstream American media sources (TV sources that is) since the 1960s...all because he does what you say, intensely scrutinizes the actions of his own country. 

I think tbh, its why I'm seeing the good in Putin (yes, I'm aware that's possible with Hitler too!)

But I just despise America at that level. Not as a people of course because we're of a kind.

But the wars they wage both openly and from Washington, the horrific actions they've gone to in trying to win these wars. All in the name of creating a world THEY think is right

It's like your average Joe drinks in this idea that the world is a prisoner until America and Allies can free it. 

They pick and choose who the terrorists are and who the freedom fighters are

And the whole idea that our news tells the honest picture but others are misleading. Bull - fecking - poo. 

It tells selective truths just like they are in Russia. The whole tank running over a car video.... they didn't show the entire full video did they? There's another 5 minutes of that. 

It seems to me that wars waged in the middle east are somehow much more acceptable. Its what they do there. Animals! 

Didn't like 13,000 civilians die to Coalition forces during the Iraq invasion? It was like any number above 200,000 in total. In pursuit of what? Where was the world then? Watching it on telly shaking their heads but not tying them up in sanctions. 

We're very good at presenting our own wars it seems. Some are glorified in Hollywood. The very least we do is imply that things are almost a terrible uncontrollable byproduct of "liberation"

Putin = Hitler

Blair and Bush = naughty boys. 

Russia declaring war on its neighbour claiming to be defending it's territory and states it recognises = Attack on freedom and democracy 

USA and allies invading nations half a world away = liberating the people, bringing freedom and democracy to the region. 

Ah, I don't know. Putin can go choke on his cornflakes for all I care. Blood is on his hands. 

But the West and it's free world BS. Almost laiming anything else you hear to be the propaganda of evil tyrants. 

The reports on the Israel/Palestine conflict are so bad they're almost funny. But that's a thread killing debate right there. 

Hopefully not offended anyone in this post. I'm not about to join a terrorist organisation! Just feels like the propaganda machine in Russia was so popular they ordered one in Washington and London. All the same poo

[DesertRam]

5 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

1: Fair enough, I can't say 'most Russians' but I have spoken to my wife's family over the past few days, plus friends, and that is very much their view.

2: Reason I have some insight? See point one! I've lived and worked in Russia as well. It makes me one voice, I do just want to try to point out that there is a lovely country, lovely people and a working system behind all of this (one that in many ways works better than our own or that of countries like the US). Even up until last week I would have described myself as something of a sympathiser of the way Putin ran the country, though that has obviously changed in the past week.

What I abhore is the way the politicians and media seem to now want to use this for opportunity. Even the silliness of the Tube strike message posted earlier in this thread shows how that happens, how we now see opportunity to not just end the Ukraine situation but to topple Putin, demonise Russia and impose yet more sanctions and restrictions on a country that many of us still view through the same lens as we did when they were in the Soviet Union. Isabel Oakenshott, posting that our fast response has been due to Brexit, also shows just how quickly people can be to take such horrible activities and reframe there for their own advantage.

It isn't the Russian peoples fault that they have the equivalent of a Crime boss as their leader, i'm sure

nobody blames the ordinary citizens for any of this - after all, every major decision is made by just one person!

[Anon]

4 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Who took the decision to remove RT from the air? Was that a government decision? (genuine question)

 

Actually I'm not sure. I know that Sky pulled their channel out of choice without waiting for the verdict of an Ofcom investigation. With regards to free to air, I don't know who made the call.

[ramit]

8 hours ago, Anon said:

I note we've decided against having the slanging match and taking the Russian position to bits and instead chosen to pull Russia Today from the air. Thank goodness we aren't ruled by a despotic president who controls what media we can view though.

It is very difficult to follow events on the ground and the political arena when all opposing views and positions to the western stance are banned from viewing.  Our governments claim we live in democracies, but if the citizens are not able to inform themselves from all sides of debates it is a hollow claim.  This is a modern form of book burning, an activity formerly denounced as fascism, but today it's okay, because we are the good guys.

[DesertRam]

9 minutes ago, Alpha said:

USA and allies invading nations half a world away = liberating the people, bringing freedom and democracy to the region. 

Ah, I don't know. Putin can go choke on his cornflakes for all I care. Blood is on his hands. 

But the West and it's free world BS. Almost laiming anything else you hear to be the propaganda of evil tyrants. 

The reports on the Israel/Palestine conflict are so bad they're almost funny. But that's a thread killing debate right there. 

Hopefully not offended anyone in this post. I'm not about to join a terrorist organisation! Just feels like the propaganda machine in Russia was so popular they ordered one in Washington and London. All the same poo

There is a difference thou, you can tell us your views, and the odds are that you will not be woken up

at 5 o clock in the morning, and disappear!

Nobody is saying that the West is blameless - it's obvious that oil reserves (apart from the invasion of Kuwait)

were one of the main factors behind the decision making, definitely no weapons of mass destruction etc.

[Leeds Ram]

49 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

No, because for many (not all, tbf) they don't have the same frame of reference as you and I - in many parts of the west we've been taught since we were young that the greatest gift our country gives to us is democracy. Public opinion in Russia is not as directly connected to ability to speak out freely or not (even though for the average man or woman they absolutely can), it is more closely linked to the ability of the state to provide security (of many types), infrastructure, guidance and general benefit. It is one of the reasons the birth rate is so low in Russia, because inherently there is a belief that you don't need a big family to look after you in your old age, the state will do it for you. So, again, your values are not theirs and your statements are not representative of how they view many things and until many in the West take time to realise that they will continue to try to fix the problem from their perspective.

Feel free to reply (hey, freedom of speech and all that) but I think we're probably getting off topic a bit - title of the thread isn't really an analysis of Russian psychology.

I'd just say those things have got nothing to do with the ability to accurately measure public opinion. It's widely recognised in political science data collection that those living under authoritarian rule (which whether you acknowledge it or not Russia is) affects the ability to accurately measure public views. That's not a controversial point, the different framing of what 'democracy' really means that you moved onto (Lenin, Schmitt etc. all have different illiberal definitions of what a democracy looks like) is not something I addressed as that is for a different discussion. 

 

 

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Highgate said:

Another potential benefit of this war I suppose, and I know it's unpleasant to start talking about benefits of something so horrible and unnecessary, but this war will surely hasten European countries rejection of Russian fossil fuels in favour of interlinked renewables with battery storage technology.

The truth is there will be plenty seeing and even planning the benefit s of this even before it kicked off just the same as any war or event like covid,??‍♂️
we are miles away from renewable s and batteries being close to being able to produce a fraction of the worlds needs power wise , where’s all the power comming from, where’s all the battery raw materials being mined from ,what’s all the production of this going to do to the planet , let alone the waste in scrapped cars and the like ??‍♂️, insulation materials carbon footprint,Britain boosts it’s green credentials by burning stuff from other countries then not counting it and people lap this stuff up ,

every car in U.K. electric by 2030 ? On top of heating and powering the country , where’s that power comming from , at this point it’s just totally unrealistic pie in the sky rubbish

 

[BaaLocks]

17 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

 

I saw that Francesca Abel quote and it slightly amused me, given we've just been online and paid my mother in law's mobile phone bill (she is in Moscow) in about six clicks from just outside Stratford Upon Avon. As for queing for ATMs, everyone I know moved their money out weeks ago.

[Highgate]

52 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I think tbh, its why I'm seeing the good in Putin (yes, I'm aware that's possible with Hitler too!)

But I just despise America at that level. Not as a people of course because we're of a kind.

But the wars they wage both openly and from Washington, the horrific actions they've gone to in trying to win these wars. All in the name of creating a world THEY think is right

It's like your average Joe drinks in this idea that the world is a prisoner until America and Allies can free it. 

They pick and choose who the terrorists are and who the freedom fighters are

And the whole idea that our news tells the honest picture but others are misleading. Bull - fecking - poo. 

It tells selective truths just like they are in Russia. The whole tank running over a car video.... they didn't show the entire full video did they? There's another 5 minutes of that. 

It seems to me that wars waged in the middle east are somehow much more acceptable. Its what they do there. Animals! 

Didn't like 13,000 civilians die to Coalition forces during the Iraq invasion? It was like any number above 200,000 in total. In pursuit of what? Where was the world then? Watching it on telly shaking their heads but not tying them up in sanctions. 

We're very good at presenting our own wars it seems. Some are glorified in Hollywood. The very least we do is imply that things are almost a terrible uncontrollable byproduct of "liberation"

Putin = Hitler

Blair and Bush = naughty boys. 

Russia declaring war on its neighbour claiming to be defending it's territory and states it recognises = Attack on freedom and democracy 

USA and allies invading nations half a world away = liberating the people, bringing freedom and democracy to the region. 

Ah, I don't know. Putin can go choke on his cornflakes for all I care. Blood is on his hands. 

But the West and it's free world BS. Almost laiming anything else you hear to be the propaganda of evil tyrants. 

The reports on the Israel/Palestine conflict are so bad they're almost funny. But that's a thread killing debate right there. 

Hopefully not offended anyone in this post. I'm not about to join a terrorist organisation! Just feels like the propaganda machine in Russia was so popular they ordered one in Washington and London. All the same poo

I agree that the hypocrisy and double standards are rampant. I guess all we can do as citizens is scrutinize our own country's actions with as little bias as we can muster. But not all countries are equally culpable or potentially dangerous on the world stage. That would be unreasonably convenient. For me Putin is the most dangerous man on the planet at this point in time and I can't see any good in him at all.

[Highgate]

10 minutes ago, Archied said:

The truth is there will be plenty seeing and even planning the benefit s of this even before it kicked off just the same as any war or event like covid,??‍♂️
we are miles away from renewable s and batteries being close to being able to produce a fraction of the worlds needs power wise , where’s all the power comming from, where’s all the battery raw materials being mined from ,what’s all the production of this going to do to the planet , let alone the waste in scrapped cars and the like ??‍♂️, insulation materials carbon footprint,Britain boosts it’s green credentials by burning stuff from other countries then not counting it and people lap this stuff up ,

every car in U.K. electric by 2030 ? On top of heating and powering the country , where’s that power comming from , at this point it’s just totally unrealistic pie in the sky rubbish

 

I will have to totally disagree with you there. But that's not for this thread, will happily discuss that with you elsewhere. 

[alexxxxx]

58 minutes ago, Anon said:

Actually I'm not sure. I know that Sky pulled their channel out of choice without waiting for the verdict of an Ofcom investigation. With regards to free to air, I don't know who made the call.

The satellite used to distribute sky tv is owned and operated by a Luxembourgish company hence to comply with EU law it was pulled from the satellite by the operator (and therefore sky).

[Norman]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

 

Hopefully not offended anyone in this post. I'm not about to join a terrorist organisation! Just feels like the propaganda machine in Russia was so popular they ordered one in Washington and London. All the same poo

Don't waste your life worrying about offending people for stating an opinion that you're either sharing or concluding from your own research/beliefs/thoughts. 

I don't agree with everything you are saying, but please, don't become one of these people who feel like they can't share their own opinion.