The Administration Thread

[FlyBritishMidland]

3 hours ago, Eatonram said:

Cue Ram1966 or RipleyRich to come on with a "Yeah but this could still go wrong if............"

One chop got in first.

[Sparkle]

9 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

It wont fall about

I know I am confident of better times for DCFC 

[glyn1957]

18 minutes ago, The Baron said:

 

Hi Baron, if DCFC were owned by a top European club and they paid 12 million for a player from  DCFC that everyone  in football knew was not worth more than a couple of million the EFL and other clubs would not be shouting foul foul from the rooftops about over inflation of the players value ??.

[The Baron]

1 minute ago, glyn1957 said:

Hi Baron, if DCFC were owned by a top European club and they paid 12 million for a player from  DCFC that everyone  in football knew was not worth more than a couple of million the EFL and other clubs would not be shouting foul foul from the rooftops about over inflation of the players value ??.

Probably, they certainly did when Barcelona and Juventus swapped Arthur and Pjanic for €70m and €58m respectively for players who could best be described as ‘bang average’

[Sparkle]

12 minutes ago, glyn1957 said:

Hi Baron, if DCFC were owned by a top European club and they paid 12 million for a player from  DCFC that everyone  in football knew was not worth more than a couple of million the EFL and other clubs would not be shouting foul foul from the rooftops about over inflation of the players value ??.

We paid £4.5 for Anya which sort of kills the argument about what clubs pay anyway our best signings have always been when they are free or a million or less 

[nogbad van 50]

3 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

Not sure we've ever had an official answer, but my gut feeling is it's more to do with the MSD loan still hanging over the club if Morris retains ownership, than anything personal with Morris.  I know there have been a few tweets from Kirchner about Morris, but people do business with people they don't like all the time.  The risk of the stadium getting repossessed if Morris doesn't keep up with the repayments, or even just the tangled mess that loan creates re other assets the club owns, is a much more significant issue.

I suspect calling MM a “ f…job” wouldn’t have gone down too well even if it’s true!
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/17132436/derby-takeover-kirchner-rooney/

[jono]

4 hours ago, The Baron said:

There is a 'gentleman's agreement' between the PL and EFL that financial punishment imposed by the EFL will be enforced by the PL. Personally I would do as you suggest and have a points deduction upon return to the EFL, but what do you do in the case of a club such as Palace, who were promoted in 2013, and show no sign, much to my annoyance, of being relegated. Should there be a cut off point (5/10/15 years etc) when a points deduction would then cease to kick in? 

First of all I wonder if they have ever enforced a financial punishment ? And then once you’re in the PL is a championship level sanction just petty cash rendering the punishment meaningless ? 

It is is a huge minefield though isn’t it ? I kind of agree there should be a statute of limitations on the these things. Is it 7 years for tax offences ?  Yet when you think of Boro and Wycombe’s stance and their ability to make that stance effectively via threats to the witless, cowardly and inept governing body  ? 
The issue is further muddied by Parachute payments. What “competition and fair play” is there when up to 9 relegated teams could be in receipt of payments of a scale that make a mockery of FFP at championship level. We may end up “catching” those that drop down but they are insulated from the real fallout of any punishment by virtue of a wad of cash, for 3 years, that is vastly more than the total annual revenue of a mid table championship club.  Can it really be true that the promoted cannon fodder from the championship doesn’t have relegation clauses in contracts after all this time ? And if not, why not ? 
 

Here’s one wine infected suggestion from me

Spend what you want on transfers if your owner is rich enough .. good luck

You'd need a system to stop clubs under the same ownership playing smart arse though. .. tricky ! 

Wages .. agreed percentage of turnover. 

Turnover .. There are only so many Ethiads or owners to sponsor stadiums and shirts, for bonkers fees and not very many in the second tier. If a rare benefactor wants to splurge then let them as long as it’s fresh money

No parachute payments .. regulation to insert compulsory relegation clauses in contracts: total wages available to be stated as equivalent of the highest earning existing championship club  .. Just as you have to accept terms and conditions in most jobs, it’s common sense. Prem solidarity money to be distributed pro rata on league position with a bonus for reaching the playoffs.

There is no fair play as it stands now - as the repeating league tables and yo-yo’s testify, so why bother with anything other than the most basic of rules.

[The Baron]

13 minutes ago, jono said:

First of all I wonder if they have ever enforced a financial punishment ? And then once you’re in the PL is a championship level sanction just petty cash rendering the punishment meaningless ? 

It is is a huge minefield though isn’t it ? I kind of agree there should be a statute of limitations on the these things. Is it 7 years for tax offences ?  Yet when you think of Boro and Wycombe’s stance and their ability to make that stance effectively via threats to the witless, cowardly and inept governing body  ? 
The issue is further muddied by Parachute payments. What “competition and fair play” is there when up to 9 relegated teams could be in receipt of payments of a scale that make a mockery of FFP at championship level. We may end up “catching” those that drop down but they are insulated from the real fallout of any punishment by virtue of a wad of cash, for 3 years, that is vastly more than the total annual revenue of a mid table championship club.  Can it really be true that the promoted cannon fodder from the championship doesn’t have relegation clauses in contracts after all this time ? And if not, why not ? 
 

Here’s one wine infected suggestion from me

Spend what you want on transfers if your owner is rich enough .. good luck

You'd need a system to stop clubs under the same ownership playing smart arse though. .. tricky ! 

Wages .. agreed percentage of turnover. 

Turnover .. There are only so many Ethiads or owners to sponsor stadiums and shirts, for bonkers fees and not very many in the second tier. If a rare benefactor wants to splurge then let them as long as it’s fresh money

No parachute payments .. regulation to insert compulsory relegation clauses in contracts: total wages available to be stated as equivalent of the highest earning existing championship club  .. Just as you have to accept terms and conditions in most jobs, it’s common sense. Prem solidarity money to be distributed pro rata on league position with a bonus for reaching the playoffs.

There is no fair play as it stands now - as the repeating league tables and yo-yo’s testify, so why bother with anything other than the most basic of rules.

Premier League has enforced financial punishments in relation to Leicester, (Plucky Little) Bournemouth and Fulham. 

[Curtains]

10 minutes ago, The Baron said:

Premier League has enforced financial punishments in relation to Leicester, (Plucky Little) Bournemouth and Fulham. 

Point of information about being allowed to sell our stadium as we did.

Rick Parry said the EFL had to align with Premier League policy on Stadium sales or they would not receive Premier League money or something to that effect. 
Therefore selling our stadium to ourselves was perfectly ok so why all the fuss at the time. 
We were cleared and other clubs like Stoke have now done the same. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Curtains
Added

[Crewton]

6 minutes ago, The Baron said:

Premier League has enforced financial punishments in relation to Leicester, (Plucky Little) Bournemouth and Fulham. 

I didn't realise Fulham had been fined. 

[The Baron]

11 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Point of information about being allowed to sell our stadium as we did.

Rick Parry said the EFL had to align with Premier League policy on Stadium sales or they would not receive Premier League money or something to that effect. 
Therefore selling our stadium to ourselves was perfectly ok so why all the fuss at the time. 
We were cleared and other clubs like Stoke have now done the same. 

As part of the deal the EFL agreed with the PL in relation to solidarity payments being a fixed % of PL distributions, the EFL agreed to a raft of measures, including adopting PL P&S rules to replace FFP (and accept EPPP, which is dreadful for EFL clubs in my opinion). Under PL P&S rules it was acceptable from 2016 onwards to allow profits from asset sales to be included in the calculations, which is presumably why Birmingham , Derby, Reading, Sheffield Wednesday and Villa did it almost immediately, and Stoke did it last May, just before the rule was changed following an EFL club vote. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by The Baron

[Curtains]

24 minutes ago, The Baron said:

As part of the deal the EFL agreed with the PL in relation to solidarity payments being a fixed % of PL distributions, the EFL agreed to a raft of measures, including adopting PL P&S rules to replace FFP (and accept EPPP, which is dreadful for EFL clubs in my opinion). Under PL P&S rules it was acceptable from 2016 onwards to allow profits from asset sales to be included in the calculations, which is presumably why Birmingham , Derby, Reading, Sheffield Wednesday and Villa did it almost immediately, and Stoke did it last May, just before the rule was changed following an EFL club vote. 

So I can’t understand why the EFL were so annoyed with Derby and Mel for selling the Stadium at the time along with our amortisation policy which wasn’t a straight line one .

They bandied the two charges together and we were initially cleared on both .

They won on appeal on our  amortisation policy but didn’t contest Stadium sale I believe.

Many clubs re Boro and Wycombe and Bristol  etc and fans from other clubs said we cheated and called us cheats which was grossly unfair IMO and eventually Quantuma agreed to a 9 point deduction after initially contesting it .

Who knows with just a 12 point deduction for administration we may have survived in the Championship.

I feel Derby County have been hard done by  regarding the EFL 

I assume you mean this 

https://www.premierleague.com/youth/EPPP

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Curtains
Altered/added

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

This was around the time of the Fake Sheikh takeover and at the same time the wages went unpaid so I'd imagine it is pretty clear what happened here.

Also there is no mention of amounts, maybe you can qualify the 'significant sums'?

Also, as shown, the winding up petition was withdrawn, so one would assume this was cleared.

In summary, stating that significant sums were owed to HMRC pre Covid (as evidence that Covid was not the primary factor in DCFC being placed in administration) in my opinion is (a) most likely incorrect and (b) completely disingenuous

@The Baronnot sure if you missed my post.

Would you mind clarifying what the 'significant sums' were please?

Was it just PAYE or other taxes as well?

[duncanjwitham]

They were annoyed at the stadium sale because they thought we massively overvalued it, not because we sold it at all. Of course, it turns out they thought we were overvaluing it because they basically got Dave from down the pub to have a guess at how much he thought it was worth, instead of having it valued properly.

[curb]

I would think that a points deduction on return to the Championship would be more of a deterrent than a fine in chasing the dream, because it would make it harder to become a yo-yo club when they come back down.

[Curtains]

3 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

They were annoyed at the stadium sale because they thought we massively overvalued it, not because we sold it at all. Of course, it turns out they thought we were overvaluing it because they basically got Dave from down the pub to have a guess at how much he thought it was worth, instead of having it valued properly.

No that was the amortisation values on players over a 4 year period.

Which pub lol ? 

 

[PistoldPete]

3 minutes ago, Curtains said:

So I can’t understand why the EFL were so annoyed with Derby and Mel for selling the Stadium at the time along with our amortisation policy which wasn’t a straight line one .

They bandied the two charges together and we were initially cleared on both .

They won on appeal on our  amortisation policy but didn’t contest Stadium sale I believe.

Many clubs re Boro and Wycombe etc and fans from other clubs said we cheated by and called us cheats which was grossly unfair IMO and eventually Quantuma agreed to a 9 point deduction after initially contesting it .

Who knows with just a 12 point deduction for administration we may have survived in the Championship.

I feel Derby County have been hard by regarding the EFL 

 

 

Curtains we had  no right of appeal to the amortisation issue.. also grossly unfair since EFL were allowed to appeal but we were not. SO Q didn't really contest the 9 point deduction . They did initially contest the 1 2point deduction but that was a largely automatic penalty. There is a force majeure clause which if it doesn't apply to COVID I cannot see would ever apply in nay circumstances ever so may as well not be there at all. 

[PistoldPete]

6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

@The Baronnot sure if you missed my post.

Would you mind clarifying what the 'significant sums' were please?

Was it just PAYE or other taxes as well?

I don't think they were that big before cOVID. We missed a PAYE payment (and with our wage bill that's not peanuts) which caused HMRC to slap in a winding up order . But that doesn't mean the debt was that big , only that it was late. 

[CBRammette]

1 hour ago, Gisby said:

Understand your frustration\bemusement but my experience of conveyancing matters is that whenever a deadline is set the legal bods will tend to work to that deadline i.e. not much completes early but the vast majority complete on or 24 hours before the deadline. Can’t say I completely understand the reason behind this but the moment 31st May was set as deadline day I almost new\expected it would go to the wire. 

I know why is that? Its not just lawyers - accountants and tax advisers too. Always everyone rushing around at the last second. I would have said that before it was a macho thing but still same now so many more women involved in transactions

[CBRammette]

5 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

I don't think they were that big before cOVID. We missed a PAYE payment (and with our wage bill that's not peanuts) which caused HMRC to slap in a winding up order . But that doesn't mean the debt was that big , only that it was late. 

It probably was either big or the club's management were not being cooperative or they wouldnt apply for winding up order