The Administration Thread

[RipleyRich]

19 hours ago, Eatonram said:

If there is ever any chink of light at the end of the tunnel, RipleyRich and Atherstone can be depended on to provide the blackout curtains.

Just trying to take a realistic perspective and give a balanced opinion, that`s all.

I`ll admit to looking on the Black Side of life, picture the worst and then anything better than that is a bonus!

A bit like this Council buying the Stadium lark. I`m not sure it resolves the problem. £30m is still necessary to effect a puchase without the Stadium, and so far it seems that is too much without a Stadium. So what changes?

[RipleyRich]

12 hours ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Yes, I can’t believe owners wouldn’t want the stadium. Someone like Ashley surely would see it as a key part of promoting his brand plus naming rights etc…..

£20m is a huge advertising bill!

 

He would have to sell a hell of a lot of extra Lonsdale Hoodies and Shiny Umbro Track Pants to make that back.

Edited April 4, 2022 by RipleyRich

[RipleyRich]

13 hours ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

I'm probably being dense but surely the stadium has more value in it (as long as we have a team) than the club itself? In other words why wouldn't a purchaser stump up £20m for a valuable asset? Clearing the debts against the value of the club assets is the difficulty surely. 

That`s exactly the reality. The debt outweighs the value of the club. That`s why there is no value in the money (currently) required to purchase the Club and Stadium.

If the Stadium was still owned by the Club, satisfying the debt would buy the club as a whole. MM has completely ducked the club over by transfer of that asset.

[Chester40]

I have been supportive of the administrators and still think they are working to pull a rabbit out of the hat...

But I can't believe they don't feel there is need for an update of some sort. They gave a timescale of picking a PB and telling the EFL. That has well passed and other than conflicting leaks and an appeal to not invade the pitch,  they have told us sweet FA as far as I can tell? 

[Alty_Ram]

18 minutes ago, RipleyRich said:

That`s exactly the reality. The debt outweighs the value of the club. That`s why there is no value in the money (currently) required to purchase the Club and Stadium.

If the Stadium was still owned by the Club, satisfying the debt would buy the club as a whole. MM has completely ducked the club over by transfer of that asset.

Unless the argument would be that MM might be more prepared to deliver the stadium at a much reduced rate to the Local Council as custodians as opposed to delivering it to a business whose motives are unclear and who might just look to profit from acquiring a massively discounted asset. Who knows.. *shrug*

[Jimbo Ram]

37 minutes ago, RipleyRich said:

£20m is a huge advertising bill!

 

He would have to sell a hell of a lot of extra Lonsdale Hoodies and Shiny Umbro Track Pants to make that back.

Part of his strategy, a ready made audience in his local area. Not sure what owners get out of owning a club who haven't got a brand to promote be honest. What would Appleby gain???

[Sparkle]

42 minutes ago, RipleyRich said:

Just trying to take a realistic perspective and give a balanced opinion, that`s all.

I`ll admit to looking on the Black Side of life, picture the worst and then anything better than that is a bonus!

A bit like this Council buying the Stadium lark. I`m not sure it resolves the problem. £30m is still necessary to effect a puchase without the Stadium, and so far it seems that is too much without a Stadium. So what changes?

Derby county fans would have a football stadium that fans could attend to watch a match while Derby county or AFC Derby county are in any particular league that exists that they are part off. It would also be an investment for the council who wouldn’t actually lose money if they brought it in the long term for all the different reasons associated with it.

[SamUltraRam]

I definitely think it makes sense for the Council to buy the ground if it was for £20m to £25m

Don't forget without Derby County in existence they would lose the business rates that Pride Park generates (Middlesbrough apparently pay over £1m a year in rates so I imagine ours is at least as much)

Then the new owners would be paying an annual ground rent of say £1m per year

Plus there's the potential for losing other business rates from local business that might go under without Derby County being around

Then there's things like the Police losing some of their annual income paid for their services on matchdays

The problem I do have is that a new owner for the club sees the ground as the real reason for buying the club - it's a real estate asset & without it they would just be chucking money away running the club

 

[Ram-Alf]

5 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

Derby county fans would have a football stadium that fans could attend to watch a match while Derby county or AFC Derby county are in any particular league that exists that they are part off. It would also be an investment for the council who wouldn’t actually lose money if they brought it in the long term for all the different reasons associated with it.

All the above makes sense, But, Why would anyone buy a Football Club that doesn't own the Stadium, They're buying debt, With very little assets, A few players in contract, Not 100% sure what Moor Farm entails ie lease or ownership, A team that could be either in league 1 or worse liquidated.

This is the biggest mess since a lorry load of trifle crashed on the M1 causing huge jams

[May Contain Nuts]

40 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

I have been supportive of the administrators and still think they are working to pull a rabbit out of the hat...

But I can't believe they don't feel there is need for an update of some sort. They gave a timescale of picking a PB and telling the EFL. That has well passed and other than conflicting leaks and an appeal to not invade the pitch,  they have told us sweet FA as far as I can tell? 

Why, so people can throw another hissy fit? Why should they continue to take the flak for other people messing about?

They've probably decided it's utterly pointless, and they'd be right.

They've told us sweet FA because there's sweet FA to tell us. It's trying to tell us more than sweet FA that's got them into trouble multiple times already. There is no update, things are still being worked on behind the scenes, the situation changes daily, they can't reveal details. They should have just stuck to that line all along, regardless of fan unrest.

Unless the update is "this is the preferred bidder, it's set in stone, they've agreed to be named and have provided proof of funds to both ourselves and the EFL who are in agreement that the terms and conditions of their bid are acceptable. They will be assuming control of daily activities surrounding the running of Derby County Football Club, supported by ourselves and the football league until the transaction has been fulfilled" then it won't be good enough.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Coconut's Beard

[PistoldPete]

18 minutes ago, Elwood P Dowd said:

Councils are limited to the amount they can borrow by the Prudential Code regime.

 

They can borrow money for Public Works. Investment in PPS would count as that I think. So borrow £81 m from Treasury, buy PPS back at a price of £81m on condition Morris pays off our debts. Including money owed by DCFC to the treasury. Sorted. 

[Elwood P Dowd]

11 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

Derby county fans would have a football stadium that fans could attend to watch a match while Derby county or AFC Derby county are in any particular league that exists that they are part off. It would also be an investment for the council who wouldn’t actually lose money if they brought it in the long term for all the different reasons associated with it.

Under the Prudential Code an authority must not borrow to invest for the primary purpose of commercial return however, if they were securing a community asset that might be a different matter.

[Gaspode]

5 minutes ago, Coconut's Beard said:

Why, so people can throw another hissy fit? Why should they continue to take the flak for other people pissing about?

They've probably decided it's utterly pointless, and they'd be right.

They've told us sweet FA because there's sweet FA to tell us. It's trying to tell us more than sweet FA that's got them into trouble multiple times already. There is no update, things are still being worked on behind the scenes, the situation changes daily, they can't reveal details.

Or (tragic, but probably realistic) they don't want to admit that there's no prospect of a PB because the debts are too large without the stadium thrown in so we're just sliding towards liquidation.....

[Curtains]

1 minute ago, Gaspode said:

Or (tragic, but probably realistic) they don't want to admit that there's no prospect of a PB because the debts are too large without the stadium thrown in so we're just sliding towards liquidation.....

The Stadium is the road block 

[Elwood P Dowd]

5 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

They can borrow money for Public Works. Investment in PPS would count as that I think. So borrow £81 m from Treasury, buy PPS back at a price of £81m on condition Morris pays off our debts. Including money owed by DCFC to the treasury. Sorted. 

The purchase of an existing building wouldn’t qualify for public works but the purchase of community asset might qualify for a loan

Have a read through the Prudential Code Regime for Local Authorities. 

[May Contain Nuts]

10 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

Or (tragic, but probably realistic) they don't want to admit that there's no prospect of a PB because the debts are too large without the stadium thrown in so we're just sliding towards liquidation.....

Perhaps, although I kind of think that would fall under there being nothing to tell us - it's what most people have assumed from the get-go anyway.

I don't believe there's never been a prospect of a PB though. Rooney was told there was a chance of us signing players in Jan if the EFL had accepted the plan to get rid of Boro - no matter what anyone thinks about Quantuma they wouldn't tell the manager that if it isn't what they believed would happen.

What I do find bizarre about the whole thing is that right from the start it was thought that any bidder would surely be basing their numbers and their plans on us being a League One club next season because realistically it would be stupid to assume anything other than that was going to be the outcome... but it appears that hasn't been the case.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Coconut's Beard

[Curtains]

Just now, Coconut's Beard said:

Perhaps, although I kind of think that would fall under there being nothing to tell us - it's what most people have assumed from the get-go anyway.

Didn’t people think Boro/ Wycombe were the problem and Mel was gifting the Stadium and paying off MSD loan !

[curb]

19 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

All the above makes sense, But, Why would anyone buy a Football Club that doesn't own the Stadium, They're buying debt, With very little assets, A few players in contract, Not 100% sure what Moor Farm entails ie lease or ownership, A team that could be either in league 1 or worse liquidated.

This is the biggest mess since a lorry load of trifle crashed on the M1 causing huge jams

Wasn’t it a lorry load of strawberries that caused the jams?

[TuffLuff]

Just a simple bit of maths that say Derby is ‘worthless’ without the stadium to suit their argument.

Lets say Derby have 25,000 fans worldwide who spend money in some way towards the club. Yeah I’ve plucked that figure out of nowhere but I’d guess its probably on the low side. Then let’s say, again on average, they spend £500 a season on things related to Derby County. Season tickets, shirts, Rams TV, merchandise for family members, suites on a matchday, food and drink in the concourses etc etc etc. Some will be less but some will be more.

That alone comes to £12.5 million. Whether I’m high or low on that figure, point is the fan base itself is worth millions before considering players, staff, brand (which is really underestimated here in regards to its value to Derby County and it’s place within the football make up. 

Is it worth £30 million without the stadium? Heck knows, but we are worth something getting towards that when you start adding it all together. 
 

 

[duncanjwitham]

3 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Just a simple bit of maths that say Derby is ‘worthless’ without the stadium to suit their argument.

Lets say Derby have 25,000 fans worldwide who spend money in some way towards the club. Yeah I’ve plucked that figure out of nowhere but I’d guess its probably on the low side. Then let’s say, again on average, they spend £500 a season on things related to Derby County. Season tickets, shirts, Rams TV, merchandise for family members, suites on a matchday, food and drink in the concourses etc etc etc. Some will be less but some will be more.

That alone comes to £12.5 million. Whether I’m high or low on that figure, point is the fan base itself is worth millions before considering players, staff, brand (which is really underestimated here in regards to its value to Derby County and it’s place within the football make up. 

Is it worth £30 million without the stadium? Heck knows, but we are worth something getting towards that when you start adding it all together. 
 

 

The problem with that argument is, you have to have a functioning football to team to drive all of that.  If we have no team, then we get no income.  Even after GSE had driven costs down as much as they could, we were still losing ~£7m a year.  For a club the size of Derby, with all the associated costs, we're going to struggle to do much more than break even at Championship level, let alone League 1.  If you want to actually make money from Derby, you need to invest to get the club to into the prem and keep it there. 

For me, the big worry about not owning the stadium would be what happens in 5/10/20 years time.  Yeah, we may have an agreement with Mel Morris about cheap rents etc right now, but what happens if decides to sell it, or (not wanting to wish ill on anybody etc) if he dies and it gets passed on to whoever?  It could end up being owned by literally anybody, who could charge literally anything to rent it.  You'd have to have some kind of cast-iron guarantee that the club, and only the club, was allowed to buy it.  And I have no idea how viable that is, legally.  At least if it's owned by the council, it would remove some of that worry.