Should Rooney be doing better under the current circumstances?

[Comrade 86]

22 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Again I think you have misunderstood. The question I was asking basically is do you think Rooney should be doing better with the current set of players?

Everyone would defend Rooney because of the circumstances. He was clearly hindered by embargoes, points deductions etc. Of course it is entirely unfair to criticise our current position without taking that into context.

That’s why the poll question was should he be doing better under the current circumstances.

Simply, forget the deductions, embargoes etc. should Rooney be doing better with our current set of players? Should he getting more points or better performances from our current set of players?

I think it's you that's missed the point being made and I can't be arsed to explain it a third time. 

[Crewton]

24 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Again I think you have misunderstood. The question I was asking basically is do you think Rooney should be doing better with the current set of players?

Everyone would defend Rooney because of the circumstances. He was clearly hindered by embargoes, points deductions etc. Of course it is entirely unfair to criticise our current position without taking that into context.

That’s why the poll question was should he be doing better under the current circumstances.

Simply, forget the deductions, embargoes etc. should Rooney be doing better with our current set of players? Should he getting more points or better performances from our current set of players?

You're still not making sense. 

If we weren't under an embargo, we'd likely have a different set of players, wouldn't we? 

And if we didn't have points deductions, the players wouldn't be playing catch up, with the burden of likely relegation hanging over them and on their minds? 

So what are we supposed to be comparing Rooney's performance with? 

[Bris Vegas]

3 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

I think it's you that's missed the point being made and I can't be arsed to explain it a third time. 

I’m pretty sure you were sniping and claiming I was trying to bait people.

Or have I missed the point?

 

[Bris Vegas]

2 minutes ago, Crewton said:

You're still not making sense. 

If we weren't under an embargo, we'd likely have a different set of players, wouldn't we? 

And if we didn't have points deductions, the players wouldn't be playing catch up, with the burden of likely relegation hanging over them and on their minds? 

So what are we supposed to be comparing Rooney's performance with? 

I wasn’t asking you to compare Rooney to anybody else.

I was merely asking whether people thought Rooney should be doing better or getting more out of this current set of players.

[Jimbo Ram]

22 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Wassall, who is completely unproven other than a short interim spell with Redknapp babysitting him in which he had a very good squad. And then 3 managers who've never managed above league one level. 

And how does that compare with Rooney when appointed ?

[Crewton]

3 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

I wasn’t asking you to compare Rooney to anybody else.

I was merely asking whether people thought Rooney should be doing better or getting more out of this current set of players.

Except your first post made it clear that you wanted the question to be answered without taking account of the points deduction and embargoes? But those conditions have never existed, not even before any PD was confirmed. You may as well have asked "would Rooney be doing any better with the squad of players he'd have had if we weren't operating under the strictest embargo in the history of English football". 

[Bris Vegas]

2 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Except your first post made it clear that you wanted the question to be answered without taking account of the points deduction and embargoes? But those conditions have never existed, not even before any PD was confirmed. You may as well have asked "would Rooney be doing any better with the squad of players he'd have had if we weren't operating under the strictest embargo in the history of English football". 

No, I wanted people to put the embrago and deduction to one side and judge his performance on the current set of players. 

[Crewton]

1 minute ago, Bris Vegas said:

No, I wanted people to put the embrago and deduction to one side and judge his performance on the current set of players. 

In that case, I'd still say no, though I'd wonder why we hadn't signed a striker with a decent goals record and a younger CB with some pace, at the very least. 

[kevinhectoring]

20 hours ago, Rich84 said:

honestly believe we are better than the results,  trust the kids, play them in the right position and tell them to pass the bloody ball forwards instead of incessantly back!

Much of what our management team does is mystifying. What’s the plan with the goalkeepers? Why is Lawrence captain? Why are youngsters so often played out of position ? Why do we pick defensive midfielders when we have little fluidity up front and we need wins? Why are our set plays repeatedly rubbish? Why do we so often give up a lead? 

How often do we see our management team influence things on the pitch to change a game around ? (Yesterday’s subs were decent, but apart from that ...?)

no. This is not a strong championship and our squad should be well ahead of where they are on points. 

[Andicis]

32 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

And how does that compare with Rooney when appointed ?

Rooney is a champions league winner who has worked with some of the best managers in history. Despite being new to management, he has levels more experience than all of those. 

[Jimbo Ram]

2 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Rooney is a champions league winner who has worked with some of the best managers in history. Despite being new to management, he has levels more experience than all of those. 

Yep, no experience whatsoever. Playing and managing are two completely different skill sets ?

[Kathcairns]

1 hour ago, Bris Vegas said:

No, I wanted people to put the embrago and deduction to one side and judge his performance on the current set of players. 

What makes you think any other manager could get more out of these players, he seems to connect well with the young players, the older ones as well.

[Kathcairns]

38 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Yep, no experience whatsoever. Playing and managing are two completely different skill sets ?

Perhaps you should go into managment, you seem very experianced.

[Jimbo Ram]

12 minutes ago, Kathcairns said:

Perhaps you should go into managment, you seem very experianced.

No, like Rooney no experience whatsoever. I was a decent player in my youth though. Scored 96 goals in one season for my school and Sunday League team when I was 12 ?

[Jourdan]

Should Rooney be doing better? It’s a fair question and one I look at from two perspectives.

The first being whether the majority of players are excelling under Rooney. On balance, I think Davies, Jagielka, Bird, Shinnie and Lawrence are having positive seasons and playing close to their most effective. However it’s quite telling that only one of those players is an attacking player.

We have far too many players who are either not delivering or deeply inconsistent. Could Rooney be getting more quality and consistency out of Byrne, Forsyth, Knight, Sibley, Jozwiak, Morrison, Kazim and Baldock amongst others? Are they performing to their potential? History tells us not.

The second aspect I look at is results against teams we would be expected to run close and compete with. The Bournemouth, WBA and Fulham results were excellent and richly deserved but not really critical to our chances of survival. Stepping up in games against Luton, Peterborough, Preston, Barnsley and Millwall amongst others would have served us far better and would have been far more energising.

I think it says it all that we have failed to beat eight of the bottom 12, including five of the eight teams immediately above us.

It’s all well and good patting ourselves on the back for giving the top teams in the division a headache, but what do those results matter if they are not backed up?

Of course Rooney could be getting more out of this squad. All bar two teams in the division have won more games than us. How is that acceptable in such a poor division?

Does the transfer embargo and administration explain why Rooney has been unable to coax more from Sibley, Jozwiak, Morrison and Kazim, all players who could conceivably make a difference to our ability to win games?

[Bris Vegas]

28 minutes ago, Kathcairns said:

What makes you think any other manager could get more out of these players, he seems to connect well with the young players, the older ones as well.

I never said I thought any other manager could get more out of these players. I was just asking the question.

[Kathcairns]

21 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

I never said I thought any other manager could get more out of these players. I was just asking the question.

Would be helpful if you could answer your own question?

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Kathcairns said:

What makes you think any other manager could get more out of these players, he seems to connect well with the young players, the older ones as well.

This isn't to say that the hyopthetical other manager is guaranteed to fare any better, but...

Would another manager play Jason Knight at left wing, nullifying any attacking threat he may possess? Would another manager keep choosing a right hand sifde of Byrne & Ebosele when they're clearly not suited to playing together? Would another manager take a Polish international winger, give him a defensive / covering role in the team before discarding him because of defensive lapses, never actually allowing him to play in the role he was signed for?

Would a different manager have managed Sibley in a way that he seems so frustrated every time he appears (out of position) that he now looks like an also-ran in our U23s? Would another manager be so worried about a CM picking up too many bookings that he plays 3 CMs who possess practically zero goal threat?

Would another manager fight to bring in a 3rd CB as cover but hardly ever sub him on even when we need to hold onto a point (or 3)? 

These aren't decisions dictated by our 'situation', they're managerial choices. We don't have loads of options, we don't always have good options, but we do have options!

Again, we have no way of knowing for sure what would have happened had different choices been made but it doesn't mean that what he does do is beyond question.

I'd just hate for us to get to this point next season in League One and still see most of the same or similar issues keep popping up and costing us points, having buried my head in the sand for 2 years and put any and all shortcomings down to 'the situation'.

It may make it seem like I'm being unnecessarily harsh on Rooney, but I don't mean it that way. I just can't compartmentalise and lock away my doubts like some other seem to be able to.

Ideally it will be totally different next season, the lessons Rooney should be learning from this season (and last, even though some don't seem to want to acknowledge it) may all come together and he leads us back to The Championship with relative ease.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Coconut's Beard

[Jimbo Ram]

3 minutes ago, Coconut's Beard said:

This isn't to say that the hyopthetical other manager is guaranteed to fare any better, but...

Would another manager play Jason Knight at left wing, nullifying any attacking threat he may possess? Would another manager keep choosing a right hand sifde of Byrne & Ebosele when they're clearly not suited to playing together? Would another manager take a Polish international winger, give him a defensive / covering role in the team before discarding him because of defensive lapses, never actually allowing him to play in the role he was signed for?

Would a different manager have managed Sibley in a way that he seems so frustrated every time he appears (out of position) that he now looks like an also-ran in our U23s? Would another manager be so worried about a CM picking up too many bookings that he plays 3 CMs who possess practically zero goal threat?

Would another manager fight to bring in a 3rd CB as cover but hardly ever sub him on even when we need to hold onto a point (or 3)? 

These aren't decisions dictated by our 'situation', they're managerial choices. We don't have loads of options, we don't always have good options, but we do have options!

Again, we have no way of knowing for sure what would have happened had different choices been made but it doesn't mean that what he does do is beyond question. It may be totally different next season, the lessons Rooney should be learning from this season (and last, even though some don't seem to want to acknowledge) may all come together and he leads us back to The Championship with relative ease.

I'd just hate for us to get to this point in next season in League One and still see most of the same or similar issues keep popping up and costing us points, having buried my head in the sand for 2 years and put any and all shortcomings down to 'the situation'.

It may make it seem like I'm being unnecessarily harsh on Rooney, but I don't mean it that way. I just can't compartmentalise my doubts like some other seem to be able to.

What a brilliant post ?

[Warwick Ram]

16 minutes ago, Coconut's Beard said:

This isn't to say that the hyopthetical other manager is guaranteed to fare any better, but...

Would another manager play Jason Knight at left wing, nullifying any attacking threat he may possess? Would another manager keep choosing a right hand sifde of Byrne & Ebosele when they're clearly not suited to playing together? Would another manager take a Polish international winger, give him a defensive / covering role in the team before discarding him because of defensive lapses, never actually allowing him to play in the role he was signed for?

Would a different manager have managed Sibley in a way that he seems so frustrated every time he appears (out of position) that he now looks like an also-ran in our U23s? Would another manager be so worried about a CM picking up too many bookings that he plays 3 CMs who possess practically zero goal threat?

Would another manager fight to bring in a 3rd CB as cover but hardly ever sub him on even when we need to hold onto a point (or 3)? 

These aren't decisions dictated by our 'situation', they're managerial choices. We don't have loads of options, we don't always have good options, but we do have options!

Again, we have no way of knowing for sure what would have happened had different choices been made but it doesn't mean that what he does do is beyond question.

I'd just hate for us to get to this point next season in League One and still see most of the same or similar issues keep popping up and costing us points, having buried my head in the sand for 2 years and put any and all shortcomings down to 'the situation'.

It may make it seem like I'm being unnecessarily harsh on Rooney, but I don't mean it that way. I just can't compartmentalise and lock away my doubts like some other seem to be able to.

Ideally it will be totally different next season, the lessons Rooney should be learning from this season (and last, even though some don't seem to want to acknowledge it) may all come together and he leads us back to The Championship with relative ease.

To be honest I never understood signing Allsop when we had two keepers already. Marshall would be a good back up.

We desperately needed another forward.