'8 more players' - what now?

[Tyler Durden]

16 minutes ago, Raich Carter said:

Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good retort! You’re right, of course. 
 

I did think exactly what you said as I was typing but still, just because they’re out of contract doesn’t necessarily mean they’re poor or trouble. 

Yes sorry was just being pedantic, I agree with your sentiments that not everyone out of contract is utter rubbish - necessity needs to be the mother of invention in our case if the dispute with the EFL drags on and on as we may be forced to mine this pool of players and see what we can unearth to help us. 

[DCFC Kicks]

9 hours ago, Chris_Martin said:

There were many equally big problems last year as well. If your conceding 2 and 3 goals every week how do you expect to win games.

So what your basically saying is we don't score enough goals and we let in too many. What else is there we can do wrong??

[BramcoteRam84]

This could be our team in the not too distant future.

                          Roos

Byrne       Jagielka    Davies   Buchanan

                  Knight.    Bird

       Jozwiak    Morrison   Sibley 

                     Lawrence 

Bench: Allsop, Forsyth, Shinnie, Baldock, Stearman, Stretton, Ebosele 

Keeper suspect. 
Defence - Top half quality - Two top 6 level full backs, a top 6 centre back in Jags (still), Davies still solid at this level. 

Midfield - Knight - international linked with prem move, Bird looking back to form he was in under Cocu when he was being linked with prem moves. Yes young but certainly top half standard, level could dip at times.

Forwards - Jozwiak - international and top 6 class, Lawrence - international and top 6 class, Sibley - top half minimum massive potential, Morrison - top 6 class minimum.

As for bench, both Shinnie and Fozzy solid at this level (the latter was outstanding on Saturday), Stearman still ok lower championship standard, as is Baldock. Stretton looks a serious talent and will get goals (only denied by good defending on Saturday and top class goal v Peterborough). Ebosele is electric.

And we’ve not even mentioned Bielik coming back!!!!

It really doesn’t look that bad to me. Add to that the way we’re now looking to play football on the front foot. We’ve created chances in most games, yes we need to start taking them but we’re only 5 games into working on a new style of play. Keep playing like this we will score goals.

It’s a lazy argument to say we scored 36 goals last season and we haven’t addressed it. There were many games last season where we created nothing. Im not seeing that so far this season.

We will know more after 10-12 games but we don’t look like relegation certainties (assuming no huge points deductions come our way), and at worst we have enough to get ourselves to the next transfer window still well in contention to survive and (hopefully) we will be able to actually operate in the transfer market by then should we need to.

[Rampage]

2 hours ago, DCFC Kicks said:

So what your basically saying is we don't score enough goals and we let in too many. What else is there we can do wrong??

Injuries and sendings off 

[Rampage]

1 hour ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

This could be our team in the not too distant future.

                          Roos

Byrne       Jagielka    Davies   Buchanan

                  Knight.    Bird

       Jozwiak    Morrison   Sibley 

                     Lawrence 

Bench: Allsop, Forsyth, Shinnie, Baldock, Stearman, Stretton, Ebosele 

Keeper suspect. 
Defence - Top half quality - Two top 6 level full backs, a top 6 centre back in Jags (still), Davies still solid at this level. 

Midfield - Knight - international linked with prem move, Bird looking back to form he was in under Cocu when he was being linked with prem moves. Yes young but certainly top half standard, level could dip at times.

Forwards - Jozwiak - international and top 6 class, Lawrence - international and top 6 class, Sibley - top half minimum massive potential, Morrison - top 6 class minimum.

As for bench, both Shinnie and Fozzy solid at this level (the latter was outstanding on Saturday), Stearman still ok lower championship standard, as is Baldock. Stretton looks a serious talent and will get goals (only denied by good defending on Saturday and top class goal v Peterborough). Ebosele is electric.

And we’ve not even mentioned Bielik coming back!!!!

It really doesn’t look that bad to me. Add to that the way we’re now looking to play football on the front foot. We’ve created chances in most games, yes we need to start taking them but we’re only 5 games into working on a new style of play. Keep playing like this we will score goals.

It’s a lazy argument to say we scored 36 goals last season and we haven’t addressed it. There were many games last season where we created nothing. Im not seeing that so far this season.

We will know more after 10-12 games but we don’t look like relegation certainties (assuming no huge points deductions come our way), and at worst we have enough to get ourselves to the next transfer window still well in contention to survive and (hopefully) we will be able to actually operate in the transfer market by then should we need to.

I totally agree with you until it goes pear shaped for reasons that we have not seen coming.

[Rammy03]

1 hour ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

This could be our team in the not too distant future.

                          Roos

Byrne       Jagielka    Davies   Buchanan

                  Knight.    Bird

       Jozwiak    Morrison   Sibley 

                     Lawrence 

Bench: Allsop, Forsyth, Shinnie, Baldock, Stearman, Stretton, Ebosele 

Keeper suspect. 
Defence - Top half quality - Two top 6 level full backs, a top 6 centre back in Jags (still), Davies still solid at this level. 

Midfield - Knight - international linked with prem move, Bird looking back to form he was in under Cocu when he was being linked with prem moves. Yes young but certainly top half standard, level could dip at times.

Forwards - Jozwiak - international and top 6 class, Lawrence - international and top 6 class, Sibley - top half minimum massive potential, Morrison - top 6 class minimum.

Love the optimism and I don't want to burst the bubble but where is the evidence to say these players are as good as you say they are? If so many of these players are 'top 6 class' then surely we should be making the playoffs this season?

[BramcoteRam84]

6 hours ago, Rammy03 said:

Love the optimism and I don't want to burst the bubble but where is the evidence to say these players are as good as you say they are? If so many of these players are 'top 6 class' then surely we should be making the playoffs this season?

Take 3 or 4 players out of that team the quality deteriorated markedly. We don’t have the depth of squad to be top 6.  Additionally some of the players I’m saying are top 6 quality still need to prove it - Bird Knight Buchanan Sibley, it’s about whether they make the leap this season. Bird and Sibley are both showing signs they will. Byrne Lawrence Morrison are proven at this level and could all play in top 6 teams, you could also argue so could jags. Davies solid and dependable at this level.

My point is more that we have enough to compete in this division and are by no means relegation certainties or even certain to be in a dogfight. However to avoid a dogfight completely we need some luck with injuries or the off field crap being sorted out. It would be extremely surprising if this team with no additions made top 6, for that to happen we would need to have the four young players I’ve mentioned emerge as top championship players this season, plus luck with injuries. 
 

I would throw back the question to you and say where is the evidence we are a bottom 3 side because so far I haven’t seen it.

Edited September 2, 2021 by BramcoteRam84

[BramcoteRam84]

7 hours ago, Rampage said:

I totally agree with you until it goes pear shaped for reasons that we have not seen coming.

Which we don’t know whether they will/won’t happen. As others have said we could be 8 points clear of relegation going into the last game and the EFL might find a way to make a 9 point penalty stick. My feeling is if we go down it will take a points penalty to do it, or we lose players in Jan which is possible if the off field situation isn’t sorted out. Lawrence for example could end up being another Kris Commons scenario and we nearly went down that season.

[Gone]

8 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

It’s a lazy argument to say we scored 36 goals last season and we haven’t addressed it. There were many games last season where we created nothing. Im not seeing that so far this season

I agree the football is so much better than last season, however we still aren’t scoring goals and nothing points that we will. It’s not a lazy argument It’s fact. I’d love to know from the forwards you mention being top 6 class , where the goals will come from? In the league so far we havent scored more than 1 goal a game 

For reference the champions stats of those you mention are 

Lawrence 14 goals in 63 games (4 in the last 26 games) 

Joz 1 goal in 46 games 

Sibley 6 goals in 46 games 

Baldock 11 goals in 66 games 

Morrison never scored in the Championship. 

So again what’s lazy about that argument? What we need is Rooney to make these players more clinical and improve these strike rates. 

[ariotofmyown]

8 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

This could be our team in the not too distant future.

                          Roos

Byrne       Jagielka    Davies   Buchanan

                  Knight.    Bird

       Jozwiak    Morrison   Sibley 

                     Lawrence 

Bench: Allsop, Forsyth, Shinnie, Baldock, Stearman, Stretton, Ebosele 

Keeper suspect. 
Defence - Top half quality - Two top 6 level full backs, a top 6 centre back in Jags (still), Davies still solid at this level. 

Midfield - Knight - international linked with prem move, Bird looking back to form he was in under Cocu when he was being linked with prem moves. Yes young but certainly top half standard, level could dip at times.

Forwards - Jozwiak - international and top 6 class, Lawrence - international and top 6 class, Sibley - top half minimum massive potential, Morrison - top 6 class minimum.

As for bench, both Shinnie and Fozzy solid at this level (the latter was outstanding on Saturday), Stearman still ok lower championship standard, as is Baldock. Stretton looks a serious talent and will get goals (only denied by good defending on Saturday and top class goal v Peterborough). Ebosele is electric.

And we’ve not even mentioned Bielik coming back!!!!

It really doesn’t look that bad to me. Add to that the way we’re now looking to play football on the front foot. We’ve created chances in most games, yes we need to start taking them but we’re only 5 games into working on a new style of play. Keep playing like this we will score goals.

It’s a lazy argument to say we scored 36 goals last season and we haven’t addressed it. There were many games last season where we created nothing. Im not seeing that so far this season.

We will know more after 10-12 games but we don’t look like relegation certainties (assuming no huge points deductions come our way), and at worst we have enough to get ourselves to the next transfer window still well in contention to survive and (hopefully) we will be able to actually operate in the transfer market by then should we need to.

I think expectations were reasonably high going into last season. We had shown some promising signs in Cocu's first season and got ourselves into playoff contention, before finishing poorly as we ran out of steam vs most of the top sides.

I think that first 11 and bench is better than where we were before the start of last season. We've got used to bloated squads (not on quality, but just numbers) where it was difficult to know who our best players were supposed to be.

We've had lots of good youngsters for a while now, and these should have been our bench and squad for a few seasons, rather than expensive and poor backups.

If your better players get injured and your young backups aren't quite ready, you won't challenge for the playoffs. That is true for all clubs in this league who are trying to operate without ruining themselves financially.

Expensive squad players who aren't good enough for the first 11 has been the main failing of the Mel years. Anya, Blackman, Butterfield, Malone, Marriott, Johnson plus more probably. Huge amounts of transfer fees and wages when a free youngster could hardly have been less effective...and also would have improved from the experience. 

Forsyth has done more for us each season than all those lot ever did put together. And he was just some cheap squad player who couldn't get in a poor Watford team.

[Comrade 86]

44 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Morrison never scored in the Championship.

[Gone]

2 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Looking at his Stats he played for, Cardiff, Sheff U, Boro and QPR going back to 14/15 and hasn’t scored in the Championship 

[Gone]

4 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Looking at his Stats he played for, Cardiff, Sheff U, Boro and QPR going back to 14/15 and hasn’t scored in the Championship 

Sorry Sheff U was Prem, and apologies he scored 3 goals for Brum in 2013 . 

Edited September 2, 2021 by TexasRam

[BramcoteRam84]

55 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

I agree the football is so much better than last season, however we still aren’t scoring goals and nothing points that we will. It’s not a lazy argument It’s fact. I’d love to know from the forwards you mention being top 6 class , where the goals will come from? In the league so far we havent scored more than 1 goal a game 

For reference the champions stats of those you mention are 

Lawrence 14 goals in 63 games (4 in the last 26 games) 

Joz 1 goal in 46 games 

Sibley 6 goals in 46 games 

Baldock 11 goals in 66 games 

Morrison never scored in the Championship. 

So again what’s lazy about that argument? What we need is Rooney to make these players more clinical and improve these strike rates. 

5 games into a season isn’t the time to judge. Using last season as a comparator is not accurate as it’s completely irrelevant. We’re playing totally differently. We didn’t score as we didn’t create anything.

Lawrence scored 11 goals the previous season in a side creating more chances, if he plays false 9 he’ll get more. Morrison has scored goals at a higher level, and is a class act in this league based on what I’ve seen.

If we still have same scoring rate after 10-15 games then you might have more of a point.

[Comrade 86]

13 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Sorry Sheff U was Prem, and apologies he scored 3 goals for Brum in 2013 . 

What about his 6 goals and 2 assists in 15 games for QPR the following season? ?‍♀️

Edited September 2, 2021 by 86 Hair Islands

[Gone]

Just now, 86 Hair Islands said:

What about his 6 goals and 3 assists in 15 games for QPR the following season? ?‍♀️

Yeah sorry daft statement to be honest I didn’t go back far enough, I looked at the last 5 years as I thought that’d be the best bench mark to look at scoring rates in this division.

[Spanish]

14 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Sorry Sheff U was Prem, and apologies he scored 3 goals for Brum in 2013 . 

Hmmmm 2013 you say.  thank god we are saved?

[Gone]

5 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

5 games into a season isn’t the time to judge. Using last season as a comparator is not accurate as it’s completely irrelevant. We’re playing totally differently. We didn’t score as we didn’t create anything.

Lawrence scored 11 goals the previous season in a side creating more chances, if he plays false 9 he’ll get more. Morrison has scored goals at a higher level, and is a class act in this league based on what I’ve seen.

If we still have same scoring rate after 10-15 games then you might have more of a point.

Ok let’s see after 10 games, but you think we score more goals playing without a recognised forward? 

[BramcoteRam84]

6 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Ok let’s see after 10 games, but you think we score more goals playing without a recognised forward? 

I think that front 4 that played on Saturday will cause any team problems and Lawrence playing as a false 9 will score double figures.

[Rammy03]

1 hour ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Take 3 or 4 players out of that team the quality deteriorated markedly. We don’t have the depth of squad to be top 6.  Additionally some of the players I’m saying are top 6 quality still need to prove it - Bird Knight Buchanan Sibley, it’s about whether they make the leap this season. Bird and Sibley are both showing signs they will. Byrne Lawrence Morrison are proven at this level and could all play in top 6 teams, you could also argue so could jags. Davies solid and dependable at this level.

My point is more that we have enough to compete in this division and are by no means relegation certainties or even certain to be in a dogfight. However to avoid a dogfight completely we need some luck with injuries or the off field crap being sorted out. It would be extremely surprising if this team with no additions made top 6, for that to happen we would need to have the four young players I’ve mentioned emerge as top championship players this season, plus luck with injuries. 
 

I would throw back the question to you and say where is the evidence we are a bottom 3 side because so far I haven’t seen it.

I never said we were a bottom three side. I happen to think we will be fine this season and we drastically underperformed last season. 

If you look at our starting XI, it's good. The problem is the depth, as it was last season. You look to our bench and there's not a lot there. A couple of injuries and all of a sudden we're in big trouble.

As you have said, the hope is that the young players will emerge and improve to be top players in this division. There is still time for them to do that. 

Lawrence is proven at this level at the top end of the division. Jagielka is an excellent defender at this level, even at his age. 

I like Byrne and I think he's good but there's no evidence to say he is a top 6 championship player. Morrison he's a had a good start and clearly has that quality, but needs to prove it over the season. Jozwiak I definitely think has something, but needs to improve end product.

There are question marks over a lot of our players.