Anybody had a change of heart with Southgate, or still not impressed?

[ramsbottom]

Bar last night, pretty much every tactical call he made came off in the Euro's and World Cup, he's taken us the final of the former, and semi final of the latter, so I'm a bit confused on how people can't rate him.  

On the flip side, I don't think I'd want him as Derby manager, as I think he suits international management a lot better as he has a lot more of a thinker than a day to day boss.  The 2 month gap he has in between games gives him plenty of time to assess opponents and make plans accordingly.  It also helps having the cream of English players to choose from instead of a mish mash of mediocre players like he had at Boro.

[i-Ram]

No change of thought. Always thought him conservative, and a bit negative. and last night confirmed that he is still reluctant to grab hold of a game when it is there for the taking.  Starting Mount wide on the left, where Sterling had been excelling, and not having a proper right sided attacker was odd, but he clearly didn't know his best player on the right of the pitch all tournament. Grealish and Foden should have been given more game time. Taking off Henderson at the end again was naive - he has a good penalty record, and putting Sancho and saka at 4 and 5 in the penalties was never going to be a good idea. Some experience and mental toughness was needed in that situation. Henderson, Shaw and Walker would have been better picks for penalties when we were at 129 minutes.

Deserves another go, but he is yet to convince me he has anything other than a good rapport with his squad, rather than being game savvy. Got some very good players at his disposal after all.

[Angry Ram]

[nottingram]

50 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

No change of thought. Always thought him conservative, and a bit negative. and last night confirmed that he is still reluctant to grab hold of a game when it is there for the taking.  Starting Mount wide on the left, where Sterling had been excelling, and not having a proper right sided attacker was odd, but he clearly didn't know his best player on the right of the pitch all tournament. Grealish and Foden should have been given more game time. Taking off Henderson at the end again was naive - he has a good penalty record, and putting Sancho and saka at 4 and 5 in the penalties was never going to be a good idea. Some experience and mental toughness was needed in that situation. Henderson, Shaw and Walker would have been better picks for penalties when we were at 129 minutes.

Deserves another go, but he is yet to convince me he has anything other than a good rapport with his squad, rather than being game savvy. Got some very good players at his disposal after all.

Ultimately though, hindsight is 20:20. If Henderson had taken one and missed I am sure questions would be asked as to why he was on the list, when he missed in the shootout v Colombia in 2018 and missed one in the warm up game pre this tournament. On the flip side, who would have had Maguire pegged to take the best pen from both teams in the shootout?

The only change I would have made, and I’m not even sure the order can be changed on the fly, would have been to give Pickford number 5 once he had saved from Jorginho. He was in a no lose situation having kept us in it anyway. Even then he was down to take 6th so it just kicks the can down the road. But I believe the best takers were those who took them, just didn’t quite fall right. Anyone can miss on the day, Jorginho is one of the best takers around and he did.

Ultimately though, I just don’t think Southgate should be defined by decisions made in a shootout. Taking second immediately puts you at a disadvantage, no problem with that as someone has to do it, but it shows how fine the margins are that it can come down to a coin toss.

We did play conservatively on the day but ultimately were a few unlucky ricochets from a set piece away from a perfectly managed final. That’s fine, tournaments can so often be defined by luck, in such a small sample of games. If we had continued to attack maybe Italy score more / sooner. We have an excellent set of players, but so did Italy, and so do most teams in international tournaments these days.

[RoyMac5]

2 hours ago, nottingram said:

We did play conservatively on the day but ultimately were a few unlucky ricochets from a set piece away from a perfectly managed final. That’s fine, tournaments can so often be defined by luck, in such a small sample of games. If we had continued to attack maybe Italy score more / sooner. We have an excellent set of players, but so did Italy, and so do most teams in international tournaments these days.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[nottingram]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Yes I can see that side of it too. We did have them on the ropes early on but they adjusted and reacted well. They’re a wily and experienced team and it isn’t just as easy as saying we should attack more or keep the ball better. I don’t think the plan was to cede possession as we did but Jorginho and Verratti are two quality players on the ball. Rice and Phillips, for all their undoubted strengths defensively, are not. I would have liked to have seen us attack Jorginho a bit more perhaps with Mount and Grealish playing advanced central roles, as I think he has a big weakness with people running at and off him, but this could easily have seen us picked off elsewhere.

Southgate is conservative, it’s both a strength and a weakness as it is something that saw us get to the final but it is also something that saw us struggle once we were there. But we were also unlucky last night and if we’d won, which we were very close to doing, he’d be being hailed today. To take the next step I think we need a midfielder who can dictate and control a game - I don’t know of the last English player who could do that and my knowledge of youth teams around the country isn’t strong enough to know if we have one coming through.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

Got us to a semi-final and final in his only two tournaments so far. He’s not the perfect manager, but I’m struggling to see how he can’t be considered the second best in our history.

[RoyMac5]

13 minutes ago, nottingram said:

Southgate is conservative, it’s both a strength and a weakness as it is something that saw us get to the final but it is also something that saw us struggle once we were there. But we were also unlucky last night and if we’d won, which we were very close to doing, he’d be being hailed today.

More that he seems inflexible. We had problems after the Italians adapted to our play, after we'd had them 'on the ropes' for sure. It was obvious from the end of the 1st half we needed subs, we needed to change things - look at our bench, it could have been very different. He could have changed things but didn't. Mancini did - he was the better manager and that is what won them the cup, not having better players but having a better manager able to fully utilise his squad. They played unlike most Italian teams of the past and tbh when I saw them play in their first match I thought then I wonder who will stop you. But still we had the opportunity, but didn't take it.

Edited July 12, 2021 by RoyMac5

[RoyMac5]

8 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Got us to a semi-final and final in his only two tournaments so far. He’s not the perfect manager, but I’m struggling to see how he can’t be considered the second best in our history.

Not saying a lot is it. Only one manager has won anything.

[i-Ram]

9 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Got us to a semi-final and final in his only two tournaments so far. He’s not the perfect manager, but I’m struggling to see how he can’t be considered the second best in our history.

Probably right buddy, and it is fine margins. I just think we have some pretty decent footballers at a time a few others haven’t - in particular Spain, Germany and Portugal. I think a few players picked and let off the leash might have caused more havoc - in particular Foden, James and Grealish.  As good as Rice and Philips played in some games, it’s one or the other for me, and certainly not both in a 3 4 3.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

8 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Not saying a lot is it. Only one manager has won anything.

No not at all. I said the other day it’s pretty depressing that that’s the case.

[nottingram]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

More that he seems inflexible. We had problems after the Italians adapted to our play, after we'd had them 'on the ropes' for sure. He could have changed things but didn't. Mancini did - he was the better manager and that is what won them the cup, not having better players but having a better manager able to fully utilise his squad. They played unlike most Italian teams of the past and tbh when I saw them play in their first match I thought then I wonder who will stop you. But still we had the opportunity, but didn't take it.

They won the cup on penalties which can go either way. The team who takes them second will often lose - that’s fine, someone has to, but it is true. It didn’t really come down to who was a better manager, just who could hold their nerve from 12 yards. They did, we didn’t. Southgate may have made mistakes choosing the takers but that comes down to hindsight only.

Don’t agree he’s inflexible. Has developed and picked a squad capable of 3 or 4 at the back as seen by the switches this tournament. He may look back with regret at some decisions last night but it is not as simple as just saying “be more attacking” or “keep the ball better.” I personally think he overthought it with the starting lineup last night but he has earned the right to make the decisions over the last 4 years. 

Besides, I don’t see anyone out there who’d be better for us at this moment in time. Young squad who he has coached through the ranks, who he trusts and who trust him. 

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, nottingram said:

They won the cup on penalties which can go either way. The team who takes them second will often lose - that’s fine, someone has to, but it is true. It didn’t really come down to who was a better manager, just who could hold their nerve from 12 yards. They did, we didn’t. Southgate may have made mistakes choosing the takers but that comes down to hindsight only.

Shouldn't have gone to penalties - we had them...

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, nottingram said:

Besides, I don’t see anyone out there who’d be better for us at this moment in time. Young squad who he has coached through the ranks, who he trusts and who trust him. 

We won't find out until he bombs out...the culture of the England team has changed, they want to be there now too. Another manager who's to say who.

[Van der MoodHoover]

Southgate didn't do much wrong, but for me our substitutions were too much like for like and didn't really have any impact in changing the tide of the game. 

But it was a reasonable tournament overall and certainly no justification for changing the manager. 

[brady1993]

Like most I have criticisms of him (being a touch too pragmatic for one) and I think he made mistakes in the final. However it's hard to argue with his record and I think he's done a couple things really well that honestly I can't really remember an England manager doing in my time watching. Namely the squad all seem highly motivated, tightly knit and play for him and the teams he names seem tactically cohesive, playing like a team with a plan rather than a selection of the 11 "best" players shoved into a system that doesn't make a deal of sense.

Any talk of replacing him before the next world cup seems kind of silly to me.

[Marriot Ram99]

Thought he was a Conservative manager with no ballocks still think he is a Conservative manager with no ballocks, albeit one that was a penalty shootout away from being very successful. 

 

[sage]

21 hours ago, i-Ram said:

No change of thought. Always thought him conservative, and a bit negative. and last night confirmed that he is still reluctant to grab hold of a game when it is there for the taking.  Starting Mount wide on the left, where Sterling had been excelling, and not having a proper right sided attacker was odd, but he clearly didn't know his best player on the right of the pitch all tournament. Grealish and Foden should have been given more game time. Taking off Henderson at the end again was naive - he has a good penalty record, and putting Sancho and saka at 4 and 5 in the penalties was never going to be a good idea. Some experience and mental toughness was needed in that situation. Henderson, Shaw and Walker would have been better picks for penalties when we were at 129 minutes.

Deserves another go, but he is yet to convince me he has anything other than a good rapport with his squad, rather than being game savvy. Got some very good players at his disposal after all.

Does he?

[i-Ram]

8 minutes ago, sage said:

Does he?

Dont ask me. If you want actual facts I really am not your man.

[sage]

2 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Dont ask me. If you want actual facts I really am not your man.

Is that a fact?