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Anybody had a change of heart with Southgate, or still not impressed?


Bob The Badger

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I'm presuming some may have seeing as he was called everything from a yes-man to tactically naive prior to the Euros.

When I lived in t he US I didn't watch much Premiership and very few England games so I really didn't have much of an opinion and was on the fence.

But I was worried that he'd taken Boro down and not managed/coached at this level, but I thought the last WC looked promising.

Then I thought the open letter he wrote prior to the start of the tournament was utterly brilliant.

Of course that didn't mean he'd do well here, but it did show a real awareness of stuff other than the football, most importantly his players.

Then when I have seen interviews with other people who have known him from way back and who have talked about his approach to every level of the England organisation in terms of making it inclusive whilst giving autonomy for people to do what they do best, my admiration shot up.

That is how you lead rather than just manage.

He's also incredibly gutsy and not at all swayed by the media and fans clamouring.

Sir Alf was like that with Hurst over Greaves. He stuck to what he thought was the best thing to do even when millions disagreed.

To bring Grealish on and then take him off again required gonads of biblical proportions.

I also love that this team is almost egoless in an era where that is so unusual. That's not an accident.

So I've gone from ambivalence to thinking I don't care what happens today, I'll still be glad we have him going into the World Cup and I think this team will be a real force for years to come.

Anybody else changed their mind?

More importantly, anybody else still not impressed?

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52 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

I'm presuming some may have seeing as he was called everything from a yes-man to tactically naive prior to the Euros.

When I lived in t he US I didn't watch much Premiership and very few England games so I really didn't have much of an opinion and was on the fence.

But I was worried that he'd taken Boro down and not managed/coached at this level, but I thought the last WC looked promising.

Then I thought the open letter he wrote prior to the start of the tournament was utterly brilliant.

Of course that didn't mean he'd do well here, but it did show a real awareness of stuff other than the football, most importantly his players.

Then when I have seen interviews with other people who have known him from way back and who have talked about his approach to every level of the England organisation in terms of making it inclusive whilst giving autonomy for people to do what they do best, my admiration shot up.

That is how you lead rather than just manage.

He's also incredibly gutsy and not at all swayed by the media and fans clamouring.

Sir Alf was like that with Hurst over Greaves. He stuck to what he thought was the best thing to do even when millions disagreed.

To bring Grealish on and then take him off again required gonads of biblical proportions.

I also love that this team is almost egoless in an era where that is so unusual. That's not an accident.

So I've gone from ambivalence to thinking I don't care what happens today, I'll still be glad we have him going into the World Cup and I think this team will be a real force for years to come.

Anybody else changed their mind?

More importantly, anybody else still not impressed?

I am Always drawn to those who speak softly and get on with it like Gareth. I thought he did well in the WC with a very young team but doubts started to creep in when I saw the odd turgid defensive game, and I have never like 2 DM’s in any set up. The Scotland game was a low, how could such a great group look so unadventurous and ordinary ? Yet, on reflection that was a particular match against particular opposition and maybe “don’t lose” was the key 

I love his calm integrity and the Denmark game showed he had nouse. The behind the scenes stories and the forging of a team unit without egos say even more. 

Not sure if that answers the post though ?
 

 

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I don't think I've ever been against Southgate, I probably thought at the time of his appointment it was a safe option and would have liked someone a bit more charismatic - but here we are ? 

Southgate exudes calmness and intelligence, he clearly has all the players focussed no matter what their status in the squad.  He is probably helped by the fact we have no real superstars in the squad  - certainly no superstar ego's, but its still a talent to keep players that aren't playing, or those subbed on and off after 30 mins happy and the squad moving together as a unit.

Makes you wonder what he might have been able to do with previous squads that had more talent and more personality.

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The importance of his man management simply can’t be understated. It’s not just an optional bonus. It’s a huge part of our current relative success.

And something I keep hearing from people who know what they’re talking about is international tournaments aren’t won by swashbuckling teams. Something to bear in mind before calling for the shackles to come off.

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50 minutes ago, jono said:

...doubts started to creep in when I saw the odd turgid defensive game, and I have never like 2 DM’s in any set up. The Scotland game was a low, how could such a great group look so unadventurous and ordinary ? Yet, on reflection that was a particular match against particular opposition and maybe “don’t lose” was the key ...

This bit for me. I know you can only beat the team 'in front of you' but we've had a easier ride than some and still made heavy going of it at times. So maybe we're growing into the competition (and you can't do that if you're out of it) and reaching our potential at the right time. We'll see. I really hope we win tonight, it'll be good for English football as a whole. But I'm still not sure about Southgate, and whether with this squad of players there wasn't another way to win. 

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He’s won me over. Always thought he was too negative but he has managed this group of players almost perfectly through this tournament.

I was gutted when we lost to Iceland but Southgate has learnt from that, he seems mentally stronger and the players are feeding off that, they trust him, he keeps the fringe players involved , the senior players respect him, for the first time in years there’s no cliques, it’s one team.

Win or lose tonight, he’s the man to take us into the next World Cup without a doubt.

 

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1 hour ago, maxjam said:

Makes you wonder what he might have been able to do with previous squads that had more talent and more personality.

Probably another thread but not sure when we've had a better squad. Maybe 2004?

Probably doesn't matter, it's all about getting decent players to play as a team. Such as when Greece and Danes won the Euros.

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8 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Probably another thread but not sure when we've had a better squad. Maybe 2004?

Probably doesn't matter, it's all about getting decent players to play as a team. Such as when Greece and Danes won the Euros.

Great point. I am as bad as anyone when waffling about team selection, tactics, formation but the most effective talent any manger can have  is the one that gets a team to play as a unit using their combined strengths. 

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Just now, jono said:

Great point. I am as bad as anyone when waffling about team selection, tactics, formation but the most effective talent any manger can have  is the one that gets a team to play as a unit using their combined strengths. 

Maybe we all fall into the trap of thinking about team selection first. Maybe we need tactics and formation to start with, then work out who goes where.

Phillips and Rice have already had more success for England than Lampard and Gerrard did in the centre of midfield.

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Difficult to draw comparisons when the systems were so different. 

Maybe that's the point of the England manager - get the right players for your system. 

My Chelsea supporting mate said that Frank Lampard was always much more effective when they played with one striker. So when sven stuck rigid to a 442 you may as well not bothered playing Frank. 

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I thought his appointment had parallels with Ron Greenwood’s. Nice bloke, bit of a diplomat, won’t go upsetting the apple cart, never set the top division alight with success.

I wasn’t overly enthusiastic about it but then I’d lost a bit of enthusiasm about international football, much like I have for Premier League football.

What has impressed me as I alluded to in another thread yesterday is his attention to detail and management away from the actual games.

Some might say he’s been fortunate he doesn’t have players in this squad who feel the need to court publicity and build their brand off the back of playing for England at a major tournament but I really believe he’s got everyone, the team, physios, chefs, the whole shooting match, onside with one aim and I can’t say I remember such a display of “oneness” in recent times and that’s to Southgate’s credit.

Wishing him the best of luck tonight. ?

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1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

Phillips and Rice have already had more success for England than Lampard and Gerrard did in the centre of midfield.

What a weird and entirely true thing to be saying.

At the moment if you were to rank those players you may struggle to know who 1 and 2 were, but you'd know neither would be Rice or Phillips.

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I think his success just goes to show that at the very top level of football there has to be a degree of pragmatism in team selection. 

We have criticised Rooney on a number of occasions because his selection omitted players we find exciting. 

Sometimes you have to counter the opposition's strengths before you can play the way you want. 

7-4 - including the keeper seems to be the way most set up in terms of defending / attacking players with two defensive midfielders protecting the back and one supporting the front three. 

When a team plays a back three, it's one of the wing backs that usually supports the front players. 

Southgate's biggest achievement is squad harmony. That is true management and has taught us fans patience. 

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I still have my doubts about Southgate. I think with the squad he's had available to him, he could have permed any number of players into the starting line and still have got the same results. What worries me his ability to change his tactics mid-game, when we are having to chase the game.

These doubts are all down to my normal pessimism, something that seems to get worse as I get older. 

So hopefully I'm wrong and Southgate is the greatest manager since Ramsey and we beat Italy with no need to go to a plan B

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1 hour ago, 1of4 said:

I still have my doubts about Southgate. I think with the squad he's had available to him, he could have permed any number of players into the starting line and still have got the same results. What worries me his ability to change his tactics mid-game, when we are having to chase the game.

These doubts are all down to my normal pessimism, something that seems to get worse as I get older. 

So hopefully I'm wrong and Southgate is the greatest manager since Ramsey and we beat Italy with no need to go to a plan B

Ban? At least until 10pm if we lose!

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5 hours ago, Pearl Ram said:

I thought his appointment had parallels with Ron Greenwood’s. Nice bloke, bit of a diplomat, won’t go upsetting the apple cart, never set the top division alight with success.

I wasn’t overly enthusiastic about it but then I’d lost a bit of enthusiasm about international football, much like I have for Premier League football.

What has impressed me as I alluded to in another thread yesterday is his attention to detail and management away from the actual games.

Some might say he’s been fortunate he doesn’t have players in this squad who feel the need to court publicity and build their brand off the back of playing for England at a major tournament but I really believe he’s got everyone, the team, physios, chefs, the whole shooting match, onside with one aim and I can’t say I remember such a display of “oneness” in recent times and that’s to Southgate’s credit.

Wishing him the best of luck tonight. ?

yeah - definitely feels like Southgate coming from the Under 21s job has built some proper camaradery and also taught him how to deal with young fragile egos in the crazy world of professional football.

You get a "big name" manager and a lot of the time it's about him proving to the players that he's Johnny Big-Balls - don't feel that with Southgate. If anything, after the 96 penalties he's showing them what an archetypal England loser looks like - and he's showing them it doesn't have to be like that

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