The coronabrexit thread. I mean, coronavirus thread

[Archied]

13 minutes ago, MrPlinkett said:

I can see a step 4.5 happening 21st June,  pubs etc allowed to open up more but work from home where possible to be maintained for a period of time.

 

Wouldn’t surprise me ,, work from home to stay safe but pop down the pub if and when you fancy?

[Archied]

2 minutes ago, MrPlinkett said:

I personally think something like the furlough scheme was always going to upset some,  people always miss out with any benefits type scheme. 

What I do know is the furlough scheme has undoubtedly saved jobs,  where my wife works would have seen redundancies had it not been for furlough,  yet not one job has been lost. 

Yet

[Tyler Durden]

9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

So no evidence to back up your statement that millions were denied furlough pay? Thought not.

I also would be interested to see the evidence of people who lost their homes or were driven to suicide on the basis of the rules of the furlough scheme.

You've had the link to the fact checking site that pretty much stated that your link was not evidence based.

You'd think if there was any basis to the Warwick University paper (which is not peer reviewed by the way) that the Government would have used it when challenged by the hospitality sector for evidence for why they are still being treated differently to other sectors, guess what...its never been used.

In fact (although I will have to double check this) the Treasury's own research stated only 3% of cases were linked to the EOTHO scheme. 

You refute my points but then when I do post a link to a scientific study you also refute that too. And when I ask a question myself such as what would you have done to ensure no one fell through the gaps of the furlough scheme and why then wasn't that don't by Sunak you ignore that too but then expect an answer from myself by the same token. 

Not really sure how that works but guess this isn't the Oxford Union debating society which I realised yonks ago. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Tyler Durden

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

You refute my points but then when I do post a link to a scientific study you also refute that too. And when I ask a question myself such as what would you have done to ensure no one fell through the gaps of the furlough scheme and why then wasn't that don't by Sunak you ignore that too but then expect an answer from myself by the same token. 

Not really sure how that works but guess this isn't the Oxford Union debating society which I realised yonks ago. 

I'm not refuting your points. 

All I've done is ask for links to evidence if millions missing out on the furlough scheme. 

Ive agreed with you that anyone unfairly missing out should have been judged on a case by case basis.

I think you're massively over exaggerating the numbers to back up your case and at the same time undermine the job done by Sunak. I dont think I'm right by any stretch if the imagination so am happy to see the evidence that I am wrong. 

In terms of the EOTHO scheme youve posted a scientific study that is not peer reviewed and, when fact checked, appears to hold little weight. I've countered it with what I have seen from 'evidence' within the industry. 

[Tyler Durden]

3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm not refuting your points. 

All I've done is ask for links to evidence if millions missing out on the furlough scheme. 

Ive agreed with you that anyone unfairly missing out should have been judged on a case by case basis.

I think you're massively over exaggerating the numbers to back up your case and at the same time undermine the job done by Sunak. I dont think I'm right by any stretch if the imagination so am happy to see the evidence that I am wrong. 

In terms of the EOTHO scheme youve posted a scientific study that is not peer reviewed and, when fact checked, appears to hold little weight. I've countered it with what I have seen from 'evidence' within the industry. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53044835.amp

Figure quoted by the Beeb is a million. So don't think I'm massively over exaggerating as a million workers isn't an insignificant number. Again if you refute that study or article then let's end this argument here. 

Bottom line is Sunak could have done more to help those unfairly excluded but he didn't. 

Am not sure why you're so intent on defending someone who purposely excluded legitimate tax payers from this scheme unless you like a number of other people of the I'm Alright Jack mentality whom are happy to get something for nothing but will then moan like a drain if they don't think they're getting a fair slice of the pie. 

[Norman]

37 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Whilst I wouldn't condone riots, I hope it would spell the end of the Government. The message was clear from about 9 months ago that the lockdowns were to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed and the vaccine was the way out of this.

Deleted

Edited May 31, 2021 by Norman
Realised it was probably a little bit political so deleted

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, Tyler Durden said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53044835.amp

Figure quoted by the Beeb is a million. So don't think I'm massively over exaggerating as a million workers isn't an insignificant number. Again if you refute that study or article then let's end this argument here. 

Bottom line is Sunak could have done more to help those unfairly excluded but he didn't. 

Am not sure why you're so intent on defending someone who purposely excluded legitimate tax payers from this scheme unless you like a number of other people of the I'm Alright Jack mentality whom are happy to get something for nothing but will then moan like a drain if they don't think they're getting a fair slice of the pie. 

I won't defend him where I think he has treated people unfairly.

Where you say he has treated legitimate taxpayers unfairly you may recall that a lot who missed out were people taking low salaries and high dividends to avoid paying tax/national insurance in the first place.

As for my own personal situation, I have worked throughout the whole pandemic, working for a company where all but 2 of us were furloughed, so wouldn't say I am a something for nothing merchant. 

[ariotofmyown]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Whilst I wouldn't condone riots, I hope it would spell the end of the Government. The message was clear from about 9 months ago that the lockdowns were to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed and the vaccine was the way out of this.

Maybe a bit pedantic on my part, but 9 months ago (about the 1st of September) the message from the government was if you don't go back into the office, then don't be surprised if you lose you job.

Then the message throughout September was that there would be no 2nd wave and no lockdown.

Towards the end of October, the message was Starmer wants to destroy the economy by following scientific advice that a new lockdown is needed.

Then a few days later there was a lockdown for the whole of November announced.

If the lockdown doesn't end at the end of June, then it should spell the end of the government. Travel from Pakistan and Bangladesh stopped, but Indian travel allowed for another 2 weeks or so. Pure coincidence that Johnson was supposed to be going there to attempt some trade deals.

So many screwups, many of them being to a non-existent border policy. People allowed to fly in from Northern Italy in early March without a single restriction or check.

Did you see how on the first day of international travel earlier in the month? We had passport queues mixed with people arriving from red, amber and green countries. They had months of no travel to plan for this.

So much incompetence. So many people who have done nothing worthwhile in charge. Perhaps we should have put the military in charge in March. Or some successful business who had worked their way up, rather than just been educated at some posh school.

[ariotofmyown]

23 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I won't defend him where I think he has treated people unfairly.

Where you say he has treated legitimate taxpayers unfairly you may recall that a lot who missed out were people taking low salaries and high dividends to avoid paying tax/national insurance in the first place.

As for my own personal situation, I have worked throughout the whole pandemic, working for a company where all but 2 of us were furloughed, so wouldn't say I am a something for nothing merchant. 

The furlough scheme was not perfect, but compared to most of the responses to Covid, it's been incredible.

 

[desirelines]

2 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

The furlough scheme was not perfect, but compared to most of the responses to Covid, it's been incredible.

I work for an independent cinema, without the furlough scheme, I would have been out of a job a loooooong time ago. 

[Grumpy Git]

8 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Maybe a bit pedantic on my part, but 9 months ago (about the 1st of September) the message from the government was if you don't go back into the office, then don't be surprised if you lose you job.

Then the message throughout September was that there would be no 2nd wave and no lockdown.

Towards the end of October, the message was Starmer wants to destroy the economy by following scientific advice that a new lockdown is needed.

Then a few days later there was a lockdown for the whole of November announced.

If the lockdown doesn't end at the end of June, then it should spell the end of the government. Travel from Pakistan and Bangladesh stopped, but Indian travel allowed for another 2 weeks or so. Pure coincidence that Johnson was supposed to be going there to attempt some trade deals.

So many screwups, many of them being to a non-existent border policy. People allowed to fly in from Northern Italy in early March without a single restriction or check.

Did you see how on the first day of international travel earlier in the month? We had passport queues mixed with people arriving from red, amber and green countries. They had months of no travel to plan for this.

So much incompetence. So many people who have done nothing worthwhile in charge. Perhaps we should have put the military in charge in March. Or some successful business who had worked their way up, rather than just been educated at some posh school.

Bang on, but Bozo the Dozo would still get elected if there was an election tomorrow, how sad is that?

I know lads who are in with a serious chance of being unemployed when furlough ends and they think he's wonderful! It makes me want to weep. They must think he developed the vaccine on his own?

Edited May 31, 2021 by Grumpy Git

[ariotofmyown]

8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

They sound more credible? Are you sure you don't mean it doesn't just sound more like you want to hear?

Not sure he even said much that the general public didn't already know did he?

The stories would have been much more credible had they been said at the time.

I think to many they just look like the barbs of a bitter man.

It's fair enough comment, but they are fairly different things.

The Barnard Castle story was about Cummings and his family. No one can say for sure if he was telling the truth. Besides,  my main anger with it was that he put people in danger by spreading Covid to other places. This is why he should have been sacked immediately. The eyetest story sounded madeup, but it was as if this lie was more important than what he actually admitted to.

I'm not sure if you saw much of the recent footage, but it was pretty fascinating insight into how government works, or in this case doesn't work. It was also stories involving multiple people and witnesses, none of whom have denied that they took place.

In terms of saying something at the time, Cummings did say he regrets not resigning in September when Johnson wouldn't lockdown. But hoped in staying on he could try and prevent even more deaths.

If the General Public already knew all this, why haven't the riots started already?

[ariotofmyown]

10 hours ago, Angry Ram said:

I get where you are coming from but the vulnerable would have had their chance of vaccination by now. 
Model this, model that, it’s a bloody industry now. 500,000 dead to no dead. Tell me what is a good model? I would suggest it would be the one that supports a particular stance taken. 
I ain’t got time to bleed. 

Sorry to go back to Cummings again, but interesting what he said about the data capabilities in government.

In March 2020, it sounds like the stats were done on a whiteboard by a couple of cabinet ministers who could count better than the others. (Probably C grade GCSE level).

By September, they had a decent data capability where they could easily track what was going on.

The forecasts in September were proved to be accurate as Johnson ignored them, and we had loads of deaths again in November.

[G STAR RAM]

8 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Maybe a bit pedantic on my part, but 9 months ago (about the 1st of September) the message from the government was if you don't go back into the office, then don't be surprised if you lose you job.

Then the message throughout September was that there would be no 2nd wave and no lockdown.

Towards the end of October, the message was Starmer wants to destroy the economy by following scientific advice that a new lockdown is needed.

Then a few days later there was a lockdown for the whole of November announced.

If the lockdown doesn't end at the end of June, then it should spell the end of the government. Travel from Pakistan and Bangladesh stopped, but Indian travel allowed for another 2 weeks or so. Pure coincidence that Johnson was supposed to be going there to attempt some trade deals.

So many screwups, many of them being to a non-existent border policy. People allowed to fly in from Northern Italy in early March without a single restriction or check.

Did you see how on the first day of international travel earlier in the month? We had passport queues mixed with people arriving from red, amber and green countries. They had months of no travel to plan for this.

So much incompetence. So many people who have done nothing worthwhile in charge. Perhaps we should have put the military in charge in March. Or some successful business who had worked their way up, rather than just been educated at some posh school.

Yes, got my dates wrong but sure nobody would disagree that the message re lockdowns as always been not to overwhelm the NHS and the message re the way out of this has been wait for the vaccine.

Re travel from India, the reason for not suspending travel has been given, whether its true or not is anyone's guess but, like you say for the Cummings story, nobody has come out and denied it.

8 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

It's fair enough comment, but they are fairly different things.

The Barnard Castle story was about Cummings and his family. No one can say for sure if he was telling the truth. Besides,  my main anger with it was that he put people in danger by spreading Covid to other places. This is why he should have been sacked immediately. The eyetest story sounded madeup, but it was as if this lie was more important than what he actually admitted to.

I'm not sure if you saw much of the recent footage, but it was pretty fascinating insight into how government works, or in this case doesn't work. It was also stories involving multiple people and witnesses, none of whom have denied that they took place.

In terms of saying something at the time, Cummings did say he regrets not resigning in September when Johnson wouldn't lockdown. But hoped in staying on he could try and prevent even more deaths.

If the General Public already knew all this, why haven't the riots started already?

Watched it in its entirety and, like I said, he came across a bitter man, and very disingenuous.

Basically his message was he was sorry about the number of deaths, mistakes were made but it wasnt really his fault (despite the fact we were constantly told he was the most powerful man in Government), he had all the right answers but nobody listened.

Riots haven't started because people understand that this is a once in a generation event and probably feel that no matter who was in charge the result would probably have largely been the same. Id say the vaccine rollout has definitely been the saviour of this Government.

[G STAR RAM]

8 hours ago, Grumpy Git said:

Bang on, but Bozo the Dozo would still get elected if there was an election tomorrow, how sad is that?

I know lads who are in with a serious chance of being unemployed when furlough ends and they think he's wonderful! It makes me want to weep. They must think he developed the vaccine on his own?

Im not sure of the link.

Restrictions are due to be lifted at the end of June and furlough scheme runs until the end of September.

Why would it be Johnson's fault if someone was unemployed after the furlough scheme ends?

[Stive Pesley]

I'm slightly puzzled as to why people (in general rather than specifically on here) are getting so cross about the prospect of the 21 June date getting put back

From what I can work out, the only additional things you would be able to do then that you can't do now are major events and full scale weddings/funerals. Otherwise, life feels pretty much bearable again to me. I can visit my friends/family in their homes, and I can go to the pub and sit inside.

The stupid thing IMO was that they ever announced 21st June as an "irreversible" date where all restrictions would be lifted - back in February. If they can't promise it now - at 3 weeks  away - why the hell did they promise it on Feb 22nd?

 

But on balance, I'd far rather spend the summer like we are today, than lift all restrictions on June 21st (for stuff I'm not planning to do anyway) and have us end up in another bloody lockdown within weeks

 

 

 

 

[RoyMac5]

13 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

But on balance, I'd far rather spend the summer like we are today, than lift all restrictions on June 21st (for stuff I'm not planning to do anyway) and have us end up in another bloody lockdown within weeks

Those aren't the only two outcomes. 

"Prof Adam Finn said the country remained vulnerable as there were still large numbers of unvaccinated people.

More than 25 million people in the UK have had two doses of a vaccine - just under half of the adult population.

But there have been calls to delay ending Covid restrictions in England on 21 June amid warnings of a third wave."

Apparently now ALL adults are being classed as vulnerable if they've not had one/two jabs! #goalpostsmoved Why?

[Wolfie]

18 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

The stupid thing IMO was that they ever announced 21st June as an "irreversible" date where all restrictions would be lifted - back in February. If they can't promise it now - at 3 weeks  away - why the hell did they promise it on Feb 22nd?

 

They didn't. They said they wanted the opening up roadmap to be irreversible and the full removal of restrictions would be 21st June at the earliest (5 weeks after the previous "unlocking").

21st June has never been a guaranteed date.

I agree though that the removal of all restirctions isn't going to make much of a difference to me either. The first thing I look for in a pub is somewhere to sit down, so it doesn't bother me that I can't stand at the bar!

[Stive Pesley]

3 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

They didn't. They said they wanted the opening up roadmap to be irreversible and the full removal of restrictions would be 21st June at the earliest (5 weeks after the previous "unlocking").

21st June has never been a guaranteed date.

You are correct - if you sit and try to analyse the precise meaning of the (deliberately?) unclear messaging

I think the use of the word "irreversible" to describe a roadmap with an end date of June 21st is really confusing. To most people (and especially given the way the tabloids reported it) they would read it as meaning June 21st is the end date and it's irreversible (ie it won't change)

 

 

[Wolfie]

5 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

You are correct - if you sit and try to analyse the precise meaning of the (deliberately?) unclear messaging

I think the use of the word "irreversible" to describe a roadmap with an end date of June 21st is really confusing. To most people (and especially given the way the tabloids reported it) they would read it as meaning June 21st is the end date and it's irreversible (ie it won't change)

 

 

Sorry I don't accept that the messaging was unclear or confusing. Deliberately or otherwise.

The roadmap was designed to have steps of unlocking, 5 weeks apart in order to assess the impact of the previous one. It was always going to be not earlier than June 21st - if all went well. This is supposed to make the process irreversible because, while opening up could be delayed, the last thing anyone wants is to take backward steps again - which hasn't (and in my view) shouldn't happen.

If the tabloids have made it confusing for clicks, then it's not the fault of the official messaging. I think on this, the government has been quite clear from the beginning. Surprisingly.