Is Rooney The man To Take Us Forward?

[LeedsCityRam]

3 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Football, indeed sport generally, is a very nuanced industry. You cannot in my opinion compare managing a sports team with a team/company that produces conventional good and services. Yes there is still some need for technical experience, but it is more about developing and enhancing a team dynamic, creating a feel good factor, generating an “invincibility” attitude, having players respect you. No reason why Rooney can’t create that any more than an experienced manager.

Since Rooney took sole charge, of team selection and managing day-to-day on the training field/pitch side, the club has not been defeated in 5 games, and obtained 7 points. The last 3 games the defence has not conceded. Not exceptional stuff being played as yet, but he’s doing alright given we lack a quality forward. Made a couple of poor decisions (substitutions) but also made some strong decisions, dropping Lawrence, mothballing Te Wierik, making CKR a figurehead, giving chances to McDonald, Stretton, Whittaker, etc. Seems to me the squad have got behind him.

You say Rooney has zero managerial experience, which is not untrue looking at it in the most black and white terms, but over the 18 years of his playing career he will have observed at first hand a lot better managers/coaches than we currently might have some interest in/the chance of getting if we are to appoint someone different. Supposedly he is a great student of the game. If he is, he will have learnt a lot more from observing and playing under the likes of Fergusson, Van Gall, Mourinho, etc., than studying and applying Sam Allardyce’s methods. But Allardyce has experience they shout. He is guaranteed to get us out of this mire. A bit like other proven Championship managers I guess.  What is it now? Pulis 3 points from 7 games at Sheffield. Hughton 13 points from 14 games at Notts.

No reason to make a new appointment at this stage. We are making small, positive steps, and Rooney knows the squad well. Why bring someone else in at this stage to turn it all upside down again. We need some consistency now. We are in a battle over the next few months and I haven’t seen anything too negative to date to suggest Rooney hasn’t got what it takes. 

Appreciate your points @i-Ram. the experience angle is obviously taking a beating from Hughton's start at Forest but that story hasnt fully played out yet. Warnock didnt get great results at Boro at first when taking over from Woodgate last season but then finished strongly & with a similiar squad, has them now in playoff contention this season.

You may also be right about Rooney picking up valuable experience from Fergie etc (and McClaren's presence won't harm there either). I'd perhaps counter that a) that was gleaned in mostly very successful sides at the top level & b) game changing decisions/selections are a reflection of circumstances that Rooney will only learn by experiencing them, not necessarily by seeing how others dealt with them. Bit like watching someone drive a car versus doing it yourself.

Can't disagree the side has looked defensively better & more assured. My concern is that the lack of goals & particularly lack of threat starts to heap pressure on the back line & eventually erode that. We've very little margin of error in games currently or in our league position generally.

[RoyMac5]

22 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Defensively we dont have a problem. Although if we continue to show little threat up top, that will start to buckle again. They know that if they concede one, there's a good chance we'll lose...not a good mindset to have.

Up top Rooney definitely has the right idea with CKR. The problem is no-one around him or going beyond him even though he is winning ball in the final 3rd & laying off quality. Knight is too advanced as a number 10, we either need another attacking midfielder in the 3 behind CKR (Sibley/Waghorn) or Stretton playing up with CKR. Im not a fan of 2 up top generally but we're too easy to defend against & need to shake things up. The late chance v Cov made by CKR for Stretton showed the potential linkup.

Rooney knows those things - he's trying to get the balance right in a squad lacking in confidence and practised in the square ball! The risk is to concede and lose, better to keep the clean sheets going and the 'not lost in ...'

[LeedsCityRam]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

Rooney knows those things - he's trying to get the balance right in a squad lacking in confidence and practised in the square ball! The risk is to concede and lose, better to keep the clean sheets going and the 'not lost in ...'

And to be fair to him, the first thing I'd have done in his situation would be to focus on being hard to beat & keeping it tight to get results. 

I do think its time now to build on that now though ?

[Parsnip]

10 hours ago, Jourdan said:

For me, I can see the good he has done but I am not convinced it’s enough to give him the job permanently.

Neither am I but he's improved the team enough to say hat a decent goalscorer in january would keep us well safe in the league.

It'll be interesting to see how a Rooney team evolves over the rest of the season so unless someone really exciting becomes available I'd keep Rooney where he is till summer.

[Reggie Greenwood]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Who else apart from Jason Tindall at Bournemouth is a managerial novice? 

Im not sure to what extent McClaren is involved. Rooney would be silly not to ask his advice but he's a Technical Director & hence not part of the coaching staff as far as Im aware. FWIW i'd put McClaren in charge until a new manager was appointed

Managerial novices can work but from the start of a season with time to make errors, not picking teams out of a relegation spot. I could raise you Shearer at Newcastle, Brooking at West Ham & Merson at Walsall

Brooking had a 63% win ratio at West Ham the highest of any manager in their history . He only managed 3 games at the end of the relegation season won 2 and drew 1 so don’t think he should count in your summary . Only lost 1 game the next season before handing over to Pardew. 

[RoyMac5]

Rooney is a Ram! ? #COYR

[wollatonram]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Defensively we dont have a problem. Although if we continue to show little threat up top, that will start to buckle again. They know that if they concede one, there's a good chance we'll lose...not a good mindset to have.

Up top Rooney definitely has the right idea with CKR. The problem is no-one around him or going beyond him even though he is winning ball in the final 3rd & laying off quality. Knight is too advanced as a number 10, we either need another attacking midfielder in the 3 behind CKR (Sibley/Waghorn) or Stretton playing up with CKR. Im not a fan of 2 up top generally but we're too easy to defend against & need to shake things up. The late chance v Cov made by CKR for Stretton showed the potential linkup.

The problem is if we do find a way to score goals it needs to be a way where we keep defensive stability.

It is the Derby way to solve a problem in scoring goals then leaking goals again.

[LeedsCityRam]

5 minutes ago, wollatonram said:

The problem is if we do find a way to score goals it needs to be a way where we keep defensive stability.

It is the Derby way to solve a problem in scoring goals then leaking goals again.

Guess thats the perennial issue with any side. I do think solving the lack of goals is the priority now though. When we start conceding again (as we will do at some point), we need that confidence that we can score 2 to win a game. If we havent cracked it by then, results will turn south very quickly.

33 minutes ago, Reggie Greenwood said:

Brooking had a 63% win ratio at West Ham the highest of any manager in their history . He only managed 3 games at the end of the relegation season won 2 and drew 1 so don’t think he should count in your summary . Only lost 1 game the next season before handing over to Pardew. 

Yes, you're right. I retract Brooking

[Jourdan]

3 hours ago, Ellafella said:

@Jourdanrarely do I diverge from your viewpoint but just because a couple of teams have won > at home doesn’t mean this was “caused” by home advantage. Since COVID and fan-free stadia, home advantage has far less impact. It’s a fact.

More importantly, I’m not setting the bar low for WR. However, he’s trying to turn around the after-effects of a previous regime who seemed to believe that scoring goals was not an important part of football so long as you played with 9 players in your defensive third at all times AND you passed the ball sideways and backwards never forwards. 

In short, Wazza is having to de-program from a football culture that if it had been allowed to continue would’ve seen us buried and League 1 by February. {I still can’t believe they loaned JM out when they’d already lost their only real striker FFS!}. 

Now, I was no Rooney groupie. Never have been. Was initially very against him being anywhere near the manager’s job. But look at the progress he’s made. Check out the impact Hughton has had at Notts F@rest. And if we think a manager like Allardyce  is going to come in and we’ll be suddenly transformed into a scoring machine, think again. 
 

There’s still improvement to be made. I’d like us to be bolder and go 4-3-3 with Sibley and Ibe in from the off. But, thus far Wazza is doing well. With a decent ref yesterday we’d have beaten a current top 10 side. 
 

So, let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water. We’ll pick up 3 points very soon and confidence will flood back. We’ll also start scoring more fluently. 
 

The trajectory is upwards. 

I still stand by the point that home advantage does exist, but it has been less pronounced in recent times.

Take the Championship. 15 teams have a superior home record compared to their away record.

I don’t think the change is as significant as you suggest, but granted it probably hits a bit harder as we ourselves have gone 12 games and six months without a win at home.

As for the rest of your points, I would say that it has only been five games and such a small sample of games can be misleading.

You mentioned Hughton at Forest as an example. Shouldn’t that be a cautionary tale for those lending their unequivocal support to Rooney? 

After seven games under Hughton, they had 12 points and things were looking up. Seven games since and they have picked up 1 point in 21 and the perception of him now is significantly different.

A good start for Rooney guarantees nothing moving forward. The positives can be quickly turned on their head if results turn.

Personally that’s why I am staying consistent in saying that Rooney wouldn’t be my choice moving forward.

He can definitely earn the job and if results go in an overwhelmingly positive direction, it will be difficult to hold such a contrary position.

In the meantime, I acknowledge the good that Rooney has done so far, but I would still contend that he has plenty to prove.

I hold all of our managers to the same standards and whether it’s Cocu, Rooney or someone else, the disappointment that this run of home games hasn’t yielded more points would be present.

Rooney is new to this and has made a solid start, but I think that’s all it is at the moment.

2-3 bad results and I wager the mood will be very different. 2-3 more good results and I think doubters like myself are there to be swayed.

[Ellafella]

41 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I still stand by the point that home advantage does exist, but it has been less pronounced in recent times.

Take the Championship. 15 teams have a superior home record compared to their away record.

I don’t think the change is as significant as you suggest, but granted it probably hits a bit harder as we ourselves have gone 12 games and six months without a win at home.

As for the rest of your points, I would say that it has only been five games and such a small sample of games can be misleading.

You mentioned Hughton at Forest as an example. Shouldn’t that be a cautionary tale for those lending their unequivocal support to Rooney? 

After seven games under Hughton, they had 12 points and things were looking up. Seven games since and they have picked up 1 point in 21 and the perception of him now is significantly different.

A good start for Rooney guarantees nothing moving forward. The positives can be quickly turned on their head if results turn.

Personally that’s why I am staying consistent in saying that Rooney wouldn’t be my choice moving forward.

He can definitely earn the job and if results go in an overwhelmingly positive direction, it will be difficult to hold such a contrary position.

In the meantime, I acknowledge the good that Rooney has done so far, but I would still contend that he has plenty to prove.

I hold all of our managers to the same standards and whether it’s Cocu, Rooney or someone else, the disappointment that this run of home games hasn’t yielded more points would be present.

Rooney is new to this and has made a solid start, but I think that’s all it is at the moment.

2-3 bad results and I wager the mood will be very different. 2-3 more good results and I think doubters like myself are there to be swayed.

Balanced as always @Jourdanand not actually far from where I am. The difference is I know I’m right ?

[IronRam 140.6]

4 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Its not the same.

Rooney has zero managerial experience & hence is learning on the job. Given the situation we find ourselves in, we dont have time to find out whether he's any good at it. He's also heavily implicated in our poor record since he's either played or managed through it.

A new (experienced) manager will have a track record & experiences elsewhere so hence will earn the right to a decent stint of time. He will also have a fresh voice & fresh ideas. Whilst I accept there are no guarantees (i.e. Hughton at Forest), the chances of success are higher with someone in charge who knows what they are doing. That applies to any job, not just football management.

So managers should get varied lengths of patience based on how long they have been managers?? Thats crackers!

If Rooney is replaced you are only removing 1 of the factors, as you put it, are  "heavily implicated in our poor record"

Is everyone apart from Rooney firing on all cylinders then? 

The seasoned experienced players in the squad have been generally poor across the board. Holmes, Waghorn,Forsyth, MTW, Evans, Marriott, Lawrence.

Knight aside, the academy kids aren't as good as we think, I doubt they are on the lips of neutral fans in the way other young startlets in around the EFL have been in recent years. (Hughes, Bellingham, Osborne, Sessingon et al - there are loads more aswell)

The only players we have squad wise that look to be standout are Bielik, Marshall, Davis and possibly Jozwiek. Two of those are 35!

I think its tough for anyone to get a tune out of that.

As historically successful Cocu proved.

[wollatonram]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Guess thats the perennial issue with any side. I do think solving the lack of goals is the priority now though. When we start conceding again (as we will do at some point), we need that confidence that we can score 2 to win a game. If we havent cracked it by then, results will turn south very quickly.

Yes, you're right. I retract Brooking

I agree short term we need to stop the rot and rooney has done that.

there is a difference between stopping a rot and staying up though and to stay up we are gonna have to start scoring eventually.

[LeedsCityRam]

Just now, IronRam 140.6 said:

So managers should get varied lengths of patience based on how long they have been managers?? Thats crackers!

Not quite what I said. Managers should be given longer based on their success (I mentioned track record) elsewhere, which is the only reason we would hire them. Clearly if you know a manager has done well elsewhere, you are more likely to be patient than with someone who has only just started managing. Thats pretty logical.

4 minutes ago, IronRam 140.6 said:

If Rooney is replaced you are only removing 1 of the factors, as you put it, are  "heavily implicated in our poor record"

Is everyone apart from Rooney firing on all cylinders then? 

Rooney is the only one who was in the coaching staff throughout Cocu's spell, was captain throughout Cocu's spell & is seeking to present himself as a fresh alternative now. That was my point.

8 minutes ago, IronRam 140.6 said:

Knight aside, the academy kids aren't as good as we think, I doubt they are on the lips of neutral fans in the way other young startlets in around the EFL have been in recent years. (Hughes, Bellingham, Osborne, Sessingon et al - there are loads more aswell)

I could not disagree more. And I also couldn't give a monkeys what neutral fans think.

[Dinnitdough]

9 losses. 3 draws. 1 win for Cocu and some were still saying: Cocu in.

0 losses. 4 draws. 1 win for Rooney.

I agree we should be scoring more. But we look a lot more dangerous now then under Cocu, when the only player in the opponents box was Waghorn.

With the current squad I think Rooney has done as well as can be excpected and deserves time.

[Mafiabob]

4 minutes ago, Dinnitdough said:

9 losses. 3 draws. 1 win for Cocu and some were still saying: Cocu in.

0 losses. 4 draws. 1 win for Rooney.

I agree we should be scoring more. But we look a lot more dangerous now then under Cocu, when the only player in the opponents box was Waghorn.

With the current squad I think Rooney has done as well as can be excpected and deserves time.

Clement lost 5 games in 30: fans - Clement out hes boring.

Rowett: top 6 from December onwards, fans from February - Rowett out hes boring

Wassall: 1 bad game against Rotherham: fans - Someone “experienced” in please

Cocu: 64 points from the squad he inherited last season - Cocu out we need a better coach.

Rooney: 3 goals, 1 win in 7 games, Including Coventry and Wycombe at home.... fans: we look improved, more dangerous, believe in Rooney.....

I have never seen the bar set so low for someone to succeed at Derby for a long time. 
 

If we talk about fickle and rank it - Derby fans must be contenders every season for the top 2 (hands up I admit I have been). 
 

Can someone tell me why the bar is so low for Rooney but higher for everyone else in terms of success? 

[Mostyn6]

54 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

Clement lost 5 games in 30: fans - Clement out hes boring.

Rowett: top 6 from December onwards, fans from February - Rowett out hes boring

Wassall: 1 bad game against Rotherham: fans - Someone “experienced” in please

Cocu: 64 points from the squad he inherited last season - Cocu out we need a better coach.

Rooney: 3 goals, 1 win in 7 games, Including Coventry and Wycombe at home.... fans: we look improved, more dangerous, believe in Rooney.....

I have never seen the bar set so low for someone to succeed at Derby for a long time. 
 

If we talk about fickle and rank it - Derby fans must be contenders every season for the top 2 (hands up I admit I have been). 
 

Can someone tell me why the bar is so low for Rooney but higher for everyone else in terms of success? 

you forgot to mention the fans getting all pissy about McClaren's lack of "Plan B", when his Plan A was pretty effective against all but the top 3/4!

[Mafiabob]

3 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

you forgot to mention the fans getting all pissy about McClaren's lack of "Plan B", when his Plan A was pretty effective against all but the top 3/4!

Yep - think I would give my right arm for that feeling again 

[IronRam 140.6]

3 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Not quite what I said. Managers should be given longer based on their success (I mentioned track record) elsewhere, which is the only reason we would hire them. Clearly if you know a manager has done well elsewhere, you are more likely to be patient than with someone who has only just started managing. Thats pretty logical.

No they shouldn't, Neil Warnock's cackness should be treated the same as Wayne Rooney's cackness. Warnock shouldn't be given more games just because he did well with Cardiff once. 

Would you accept losing your job at work on those grounds. Both of you delivered the same poor results but because your colleague did well in another role years before he gets to stay on whilst you get binned.

That might not be what you mean, but I'm reading it as that. So apologies in advance.  

[LeedsCityRam]

32 minutes ago, IronRam 140.6 said:

No they shouldn't, Neil Warnock's cackness should be treated the same as Wayne Rooney's cackness. Warnock shouldn't be given more games just because he did well with Cardiff once. 

Would you accept losing your job at work on those grounds. Both of you delivered the same poor results but because your colleague did well in another role years before he gets to stay on whilst you get binned.

That might not be what you mean, but I'm reading it as that. So apologies in advance.  

Your work example isnt comparable because a) managers dont work under the same conditions parallel to each other to compare & b) managers often dont have all the tools/squad options to be successful in their job so success or progress is all very subjective. Thats in contrast to an average job where you will generally be expected to hit objective targets & anything outside of your control inhibiting your ability to do that will restrict your employer's ability to fire you.

Say for example we landed Benitez by some miracle. Ex-Champions League winner with a proven record at a number of world renowned clubs. Are you saying you would give him no more leeway than say if Curtis Davies retired tomorrow & became our manager?

[IronRam 140.6]

23 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Your work example isnt comparable because a) managers dont work under the same conditions parallel to each other to compare & b) managers often dont have all the tools/squad options to be successful in their job so success or progress is all very subjective. Thats in contrast to an average job where you will generally be expected to hit objective targets & anything outside of your control inhibiting your ability to do that will restrict your employer's ability to fire you.

Say for example we landed Benitez by some miracle. Ex-Champions League winner with a proven record at a number of world renowned clubs. Are you saying you would give him no more leeway than say if Curtis Davies retired tomorrow & became our manager?

No I wouldn't. 

I see what you are saying but you are inputting variables into your thinking that I am not.

Take Cocu's time/record at Derby for instance. Assume absolutely everything is the same (results, personel, drinking sessions, efl charges).  Now replace him with Wayne Rooney,  in two other identical parallel universes running in unizon the names in the hot seat are Rafa and a.n. other, say Phillip Cocu himself.

 All the timelines now converge on the day of the cocu sacking. I'm saying they have all been equally crap regardless of their name/previous track record and quite rightly should be sacked. They have proven themselves as failures in my eyes. 

I personally wouldn't hang on another 10 games with Rafa as an ode to his historical success.