Nigel Clough & Cocu similarities

[Marriot Ram99]

2 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

The thing is Steve,some of these sayings are there because they are true.

I realised today that Cocu is Cocu,just like Nigel and we aren't going to see a sudden technicolour display of free flowing Dutch football.

This is it.

Realised today? Thought that was obvious about 2 months in personally. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

3 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

 

It was exactly the same under Clough, from what I remember. If it wasn’t for his sacking and replacement by McClaren, I’m not sure I’d have stayed a football fan. Mac showed there’s more to football than what we’re seeing at the moment. Clough was holding his players back with his negative tactics and lack of ambition, and Cocu is doing the same imo. Hopefully we can bring in a more attacking manager soon, to at least give us some more entertainment.

That 2-1 at Brighton , 3-0 at Yeovil (including a 23 pass move for the 2nd) and the 5-1 at Millwall in early 2013-2014 must have been someone else then .......?

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

28 minutes ago, Marriott Ram99 said:

Realised today? Thought that was obvious about 2 months in personally. 

I had my suspicions but it's been these past three games or do that have cemented my realisation.

I think that both Clough and Cocu are both more suited to the big picture side of the game in that they are both fairly adept at rebuilding on a budget,managing the finances and the academy.....directors of football to be honest.

But not the guys you need when you want to storm the league,take chances,push your luck and be an inspirational leader.

It took Mac and simmo to move us on last time and I suspect it may take another manager to complete the job here.

 

[TomTom92]

Not sure Derby County with this financials should be compared to Clough. I’m pretty sure Glick went on record with us being bottom 6. We’re under achieving so far..

[wixman1884]

54 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

I suspect it may take another manager to complete the job here.

 

Jake Buxton

[wixman1884]

55 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

I suspect it may take another manager to complete the job here.

 

Gary Teale

[NottsRam77]

12 hours ago, Jourdan said:

I think Clough’s teams played better football on the whole, especially relative to budget and expectations.

I think the frustration with Clough was the perennial inability to kick on. It was five years of the same frustrations.

I remember in 2010-11, we were 4th in November and then went on a run of just four wins and three draws in 28 games and barely survived. From then, you just knew that promotion or even the play offs was never a possibility under Clough.

Most years we looked like two different teams - committed, honest and enjoyable to watch at home, but typically listless and abject away from home with the occasional exception.

I think the frustration with Cocu is that he came in with a good reputation and pedigree greater than 80-90% of managers in the Championship and a reasonably strong team/budget to boot, whereas for Clough it was a big step up in managerial terms.

Funnily enough I can’t remember expectation / acceptance levels being this low even under Clough.

Great post 

[RoyMac5]

10 hours ago, nottingram said:

After you’ve looked at their first sub you can look at their second. Behind that curtain is a player linked with most of the top 10 Premier League clubs. 

Third sub has made appearances for a regular Champions League semi finalist.

Oops, I’m making excuses again aren’t I 

No wonder we sat back and tried to hold on to a one goal lead. We should have just not shown up, that would have been better.

[GB SPORTS]

10 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

That 2-1 at Brighton , 3-0 at Yeovil (including a 23 pass move for the 2nd) and the 5-1 at Millwall in early 2013-2014 must have been someone else then .......?

But after the last two he was gone within a month "ish". His record had  proceeded him (wrongly in my view) and i was one calling for his head.

[Truckle]

If you look at the 2013/14 season Derby sacked Clough after 9 games, which does not seem unreasonable. In those 9 games Derby took 11 points and scored 1.6 goals per game. Later that season we played that same 9 teams again, because that’s how it works, and took 12 points. Overall we averaged 1.8 goals per game in the remaining 37 fixtures, so one point more and one extra goal every five games. 

We could be in a similar position now, with a team about to take off and romp up the league.  Here's hoping.
 

https://www.simontruckle.com/post/10-games-minimum

[BOB BIGGS]

12 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

That 2-1 at Brighton , 3-0 at Yeovil (including a 23 pass move for the 2nd) and the 5-1 at Millwall in early 2013-2014 must have been someone else then .......?

Rush had Clough in his sights by then. It wouldn’t have mattered how many goals or results. All was arranged, just needed a defeat to put the plan into practice.

None of the managers who followed him has been able to get us promoted so perhaps it’s not that easy. He did a good job as far as I’m concerned in the most difficult of circumstances. 

Given our perilous financial position, I can’t see any point in replacing Cocu at present. He’s had a rotten run of luck while he’s been here. I’m hoping we’re about to turn the corner. Some of the young stars are having a breather in terms of performance . Hopefully, they will return and have a big effect as they did towards the end of last season. 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

12 minutes ago, BOB BIGGS said:

Rush had Clough in his sights by then. It wouldn’t have mattered how many goals or results. All was arranged, just needed a defeat to put the plan into practice.

None of the managers who followed him has been able to get us promoted so perhaps it’s not that easy. He did a good job as far as I’m concerned in the most difficult of circumstances. 

Given our perilous financial position, I can’t see any point in replacing Cocu at present. He’s had a rotten run of luck while he’s been here. I’m hoping we’re about to turn the corner. Some of the young stars are having a breather in terms of performance . Hopefully, they will return and have a big effect as they did towards the end of last season. 

Up to a point I think you are correct about clough but don't forget he had several seasons of no real success prior to his sackingso why did rush think that 2014 would be any different?

Mac and his team had an immediate positive effect on our playing style and confidence and we shot up the league after their appointment.

If they had taken over at the beginning of the season we would probably have gone up in the automatics.

Recruitment in every area has been a shambles since then both in terms of players and managers.

 

[BOB BIGGS]

3 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Up to a point I think you are correct about clough but don't forget he had several seasons of no real success prior to his sackingso why did rush think that 2014 would be any different?

Mac and his team had an immediate positive effect on our playing style and confidence and we shot up the league after their appointment.

If they had taken over at the beginning of the season we would probably have gone up in the automatics.

Recruitment in every area has been a shambles since then both in terms of players and managers.

 

I’m not at all sure that we would have finished Top 6 but there were significant signs of improvement away from home in those few games. Unfortunately we played Leicester and Burnley at home in August/ September and they both went up automatically. We finished 8 points behind 2nd so quite a gap. 

Its all academic anyway. I was just making the point that it’s tough to take a team up from the Championship and we haven’t been able to find anyone to do it despite different styles and strengths. 

[cannable]

It was the finer details that Clough got wrong. In 12/13 we were a major force at home, battering teams left, right and centre. For whatever reason he felt we couldn’t do the same away and so he set us up not to lose away (even though we ended the season with the third worst away record anyway).

In 13/14 he felt we were ready and so we started blowing teams apart away from home. Unfortunately, following a season of good home form, teams were aware of this and set up to stop us. 

We set up with a diamond which was too narrow to break teams down, we didn’t play a holding-mid (Reading aside) do were torn apart down the middle and we were shocking at defending set-pieces (a Kris Commons interview suggests Clough wasn’t big on coaching defensive set-pieces).

[TigerTedd]

I do remember that period I started having real apathy. A few was pretty much the expected result, and I’d feel mildly surprised if I heard we’d won, or mildly disappointed, but not particularly surprised if I heard we’d lost (I wouldn’t religiously try to watch or listen, and might remember to check the scores on a Saturday evening).

I really want to see cocu succeed. He’s got great pedigree, and dealt with a lot while he’s been here, we’ve got some incredible players, Wayne frocking Rooney for gods sake, and a crop of kids that are the envy of the championship. This should be our year for walking the league, trouncing the opposition, and wondering whether we’ll win by 4 or 5 this week.

But instead I’m getting de ja vous, that sense of apathy is creeping back. 

[Ambitious]

I feel very similar to how I felt at the end of the Clough tenure. I didn't want him sacked, I could see potential in the squad and I was disappointed when he was eventually let go. Albeit, looking back, it was the best decision. I just didn't like it after the Forest game, where we had played quite well despite the loss. 

[cheron85]

On 01/11/2020 at 00:01, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

I think that both Clough and Cocu are both more suited to the big picture side of the game in that they are both fairly adept at rebuilding on a budget,managing the finances and the academy.....directors of football to be honest.

I'm not really convinced Clough and Cocu are the same at all - Clough was reserved because he seemed to have no faith in his players (publicly berating several after games) - Cocu seems to have immense faith in his players

I didn't see the Bournemouth game but the pattern of the Cardiff and Forest games seem to have been similar - We started well, got a goal, consolidated and created another couple of chances but went in leading 1 0 - Cocu showed faith in the same players in the second half but the opposition stepped up their game and got an equaliser - We rallied and got a couple of extra chances but didn't take them or got an offside or there was a clearance off the line

Does everyone on here seem to think McClaren would have changed a side at half time which was leading 1 0 and playing well against strong opposition?

On 01/11/2020 at 09:38, RoyMac5 said:

No wonder we sat back and tried to hold on to a one goal lead. We should have just not shown up, that would have been better.

Did we do that?

In the Forest and Cardiff games they made changes and played better after half time - I don't think we sat back - we were forced back

I ask (as above) how many managers do you know who make changes at half time when winning and playing well against strong opponents?

[Mostyn6]

@cheron85 there was a definite change. We went deeper and stopped trying to take the game to the opponent, allowing them more time on the ball. Whether that was by design, or by lack of fitness.... who knows? But it was clear.

[RoyMac5]

33 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

I ask (as above) how many managers do you know who make changes at half time when winning and playing well against strong opponents?

None obvs. 

Tell me Cocu is a proactive, positive manager and we'll call it quits. 

[DRBee]

On 31/10/2020 at 23:28, Van der MoodHoover said:

That 2-1 at Brighton , 3-0 at Yeovil (including a 23 pass move for the 2nd) and the 5-1 at Millwall in early 2013-2014 must have been someone else then .......?

You missed out the horror show at home against Burnley.........trying to work out why ?