AndyinLiverpool Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said: But of course if we don't look like we're realistically challenging for Top 6 then it will be next to impossible to hold on to our best players long term. Realistically, we aren't going to hold on to our best players anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Steve How Hard? said: It's hard to argue constructively against that given how things are going Roy. I'm just looking at the whole picture and giving Cocu the benefit of the doubt. I like the bloke and desperately want him to succeed due to the fact he's remained loyal to us when he's had numerous opportunities to just walk away. As the saying goes "good guys rarely win" (or something like that). I just think he deserves to break the mould. The thing is Steve,some of these sayings are there because they are true. I realised today that Cocu is Cocu,just like Nigel and we aren't going to see a sudden technicolour display of free flowing Dutch football. This is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europia Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 When Nigel Clough came in he was faced with a mess left by the weird antics of Billy Davies and the shambolic Jewell. He was building from the ground up without a big budget. For that reason, and his family association with the club, he was understandably cut a lot of slack, and as one poster mentioned, fans weren't really calling for his head at the end. By contrast Cocu came in with the fans having expectations raised, with numerous play off challenges and some really decent football under Mac and Frank. In all honesty, did anyone expect us to be in the relegation places as a part of the Cocu rebuild project? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, Millenniumram said: To be fair, I do agree on today’s performance. It hasn’t been the norm for us to start so brightly though. And we reverted to type pretty quick too. It did appear to be a reverting to type but I've mentioned this in another thread that it is near impossible/ realistic to maintain that start over 90mins. I think it was a combination of us sitting in for a breather and Bournemouth imposing themselves that ultimately trapped us into a situation we couldn't get out of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Steve How Hard? said: I think it was a combination of us sitting in for a breather and Bournemouth imposing themselves that ultimately trapped us into a situation we couldn't get out of. Better substitutions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24Charlie Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Clough was given time and he was probably a transfer window away from making us fly. when he was sacked we had Hughes Bryson Hendrick Forsyth Keogh and Martin. Mac brought in Thorne and we flew. The thought of that midfield four makes me drool. They were brilliant and if we could have avoided all those injuries to three off them we’d have been in the Prem now no doubt about it. But that was basically Cloughs team and it took him six years to find it. Cocu has had no time at all. So no comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 22 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: How so? I'm sure he needs money the same as the next person? I think after his career he'll be more than financially secure. It must have crossed his mind after all that's happened to say "You know what, I don't really need all this hassle, I'm out of here." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Steve How Hard? said: It must of crossed his mind after all that's happened to say "You know what, I don't really need all this hassle, I'm out of here." You don't get to be where he got in his profession by being a quitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 32 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: You always knew that a full season would be over not long after Christmas (exact dates can't be remembered at my age) with Clough. But at least Cocu seems to be giving us something to play for... Yep, still aiming for the play offs ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Cocu is the Dutch Nigel Clough. He's doing a Nigel Clough job as well. We need a few wins, get them and it's all rather cold disappointing gravy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 13 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said: The thing is Steve,some of these sayings are there because they are true. I realised today that Cocu is Cocu,just like Nigel and we aren't going to see a sudden technicolour display of free flowing Dutch football. This is it. I appreciate you've formed your opinion Kash. I'd just like to give him a little longer. I enjoyed that first 20mins today and it gives me hope going forward. The players are obviously still onside and playing for him. The day that stops then that is the day to withdraw support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, europia said: When Nigel Clough came in he was faced with a mess left by the weird antics of Billy Davies and the shambolic Jewell. He was building from the ground up without a big budget. For that reason, and his family association with the club, he was understandably cut a lot of slack, and as one poster mentioned, fans weren't really calling for his head at the end. By contrast Cocu came in with the fans having expectations raised, with numerous play off challenges and some really decent football under Mac and Frank. In all honesty, did anyone expect us to be in the relegation places as a part of the Cocu rebuild project? Yes, I saw that the rebuild was going to be a big job and take time. With the injuries I expected a slow start but still think we will improve. I went for a 15th finishing position at the start of the season and will be happy with that. I am buying in to the 4 year plan and some stability rather than the continual change of managers that haven’t worked over the last 13 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: You don't get to be where he got in his profession by being a quitter. Exactly he's a winner. Hopefully he'll be that again as Derby manager. UTR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 22 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Better substitutions? Fair point, can't argue with that apart from when you look at their first substitution. A player touted to join Man Utd in January. Not a bad option to have off your bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BramcoteRam84 Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 There are parallels. I think expectations were lower under Clough because we were at rock bottom, we’d barely won a match in 2 years and we were plummeting down the league. He had a tough job, Derby championed FFP, GSE wanted to be sustainable which meant Clough had to take a team near the bottom of the league with one of the highest wage bills to a bottom 6 wage bill. It helped him that we generally won home games and that his name was Clough. I didn’t post at that time But I scanned this and another well known forum regularly. I was with him almost throughout, I had a wobble in the 10/11 season. Started well playing gorgeous football with Commons Bueno Green Brayford but went on that run from 3rd to 20th, a very long bad run over the coldest winter for 20-30 years including a 5-2 defeat to Forest, selling Commons for peanuts with no one coming in, and the game where I lost it with Clough, Saturday evening on Sky, at least -5c we lost 2-0 to Sven’s Leicester and Clough had picked a team entirely to nullify them and we had our first shot of the game on about 70 mins! It got better from there and we had some great wins again over Forest but unfortunately he built the team but didn’t show anything where he could take it to the next level. I was horrified when we sacked him. I was fuming, but when Mac Simmo and Eric were announced I thought wow this is it, an ex England Manager, Jim Smith’s Vision of Mac taking over coming true 14 years on, and one of my favourite players growing up in Simmo and Eric, goalkeeping coaching royalty, Derby connections and always one of Radio Derby ‘s best ever pundits, 90’s, noughties and now. The Dream Team, I got over Clough quickly . Cocus job is as tough. Expectation is higher but I think he’s been dealt the same poo sandwich as Clough with trimming wage bill bringing through youth, but difference being we still have to compete at top end of the table. Take the 3 loan stars out of Franks team we were bottom half and still with a massive wage bill. He’s definitely had the toughest gig since Clough. And therefore I think he needs more time. However, I think Cocu has now crafted a squad which when fit is good enough to compete at the sharp end of the table so when we’re in the bottom 3 and the longer we don’t win games, the more he comes under scrutiny and rightly so. I still think he’s the right man, the spell we had Q1 2020 and immediately after lockdown we played excellent football and scored lots of goals. I want us to get back to that. However he’s quickly running out of games to prove he’s the right man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean (hick) Saunders Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Can’t say it’s a similarity, but the first thing that McClaran did when he joined was seal up the leaky Clough defense (which was always blamed on the opposition scoring worldies or having bigger boy budgets etc.). Clough jr was always a good one for excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 11 minutes ago, Steve How Hard? said: A player touted to join Man Utd in January. Not a bad option to have off your bench. Sibley? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve How Hard? Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Sibley? Fair point again Roy. We have to find a way to get an on song Sibley back into our team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asanovic70 Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 I think Clough had a terrible situation to inherit. 11pts, 1W all season. If you compare that sort of record to sides in other divisions after a dismal relegation, i.e. Blackpool/Bolton (Champ'ship), a losing culture often continues into the next season. That last spell in the PL set us back a good three years whoever came in as manager. Jewell was an experienced manager, he was hopeless. Clough had to cut the wage bill, manage expectations with a reduced transfer budget. Clough has gone on record, saying that he didn't realise how challenging the job was going to be, it was chastening experience for both him and us. He had to grow into the role. The football was frequently poor, but he operated under GSE, who were out of their depth off-field especially with investment. Cocu has been underwhelming, he's been given much more support in term of finances although he has had to cope with a reduced budget. He inherited a side from a position of relative strength, one that has been in the play-offs/reached two finals, '14 & '19 (we have only lost more than 4 games at home once since Clough's exit). However, he inherited a side built on three loan signings in key areas: defence/midfield/creativity. Take three good players out of any Champ'ship side, all PL quality, and you will be immediately weakened as a consequence. Both could consider themselves unfortunate: injuries robbed them of key players: one, his captain Barker (NC), the other his major signing Bielik (Cocu). Both had to handle a big ego/personality in the dressing-room, Savage/Rooney (I once voted for Sav to win a Sony radio award so that if he won, he'd retire and join the BBC permanently. When you're desperate, you'll try anything). The remit for both was a rebuilding job. Cocu has had to deal with things out of his control: the EFL charges; Keogh's sacking; Rooney's signing. If anything, I think it's been a failure of strategy overall, if we wanted promotion, we should have got a manager who could get us in the top two & so avoid the lottery of the play-offs, or proven players, which costs. (We have one now in Marshall in goal). Another strategy is to buy proven/promising Champ'ship players, like WBA last season, allied to some flair. To be fair to Jim Smith, that is how he got us promoted, Factor in, the emergence of home-grown players, i.e. Carsley. Another is to adopt a philosophy, like Brentford, or Swansea, a few seasons ago. That means leadership from on top & being patient. Brentford & Swansea probably don't have as demanding a fanbase as ours (both spent decades before recent success in the lower decades). I've called Cocu a dud, results will determine what happens to him. I'm prepared to give him a bit more time. We've reached ten games, but we've played the three relegated sides, two of them away, & Forest & Cardiff, both expected to challenge but who are also underperforming in the table. If we start losing to sides in/around us, then I'd reconsider. I'd be interested in another question: Cocu or Rooney? I know it's probably for another thread, or perhaps has already been posted. I think I'd rather the Dutchman stayed on than Rooney. I'm fed up of gimmicks, I just want a manager who will do the job, build us a team & do it with players who give an honest performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottingram Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Steve How Hard? said: Fair point, can't argue with that apart from when you look at their first substitution. A player touted to join Man Utd in January. Not a bad option to have off your bench. After you’ve looked at their first sub you can look at their second. Behind that curtain is a player linked with most of the top 10 Premier League clubs. Third sub has made appearances for a regular Champions League semi finalist. Oops, I’m making excuses again aren’t I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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