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Cocu or Rowett


Curtains
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1 minute ago, Curtains said:

Cocu is more long term and that’s why MM hired him 

Rowett wanted success short term .

I like them both and Frank really impressed me. 

I get the whole building long term I really do but there comes a point where we're actually going backwards, playing crap football and not getting results.

Rowetts football was better than what we're currently watching, it was effective and got results. In hindsight yes it didn't help us in the long term, but we had a good chance of promotion.

Lampard overall was a great fit for the club who was ambitious in his first season whilst also thinking long term by reducing the wage bill, shifting dead wood and instilling an attractive style of football.

At the moment we're just being totally embarrassed and sitting bottom of the league. This is not part of the plan. It's unacceptable.

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2 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

I get the whole building long term I really do but there comes a point where we're actually going backwards, playing crap football and not getting results.

Rowetts football was better than what we're currently watching, it was effective and got results. In hindsight yes it didn't help us in the long term, but we had a good chance of promotion.

Lampard overall was a great fit for the club who was ambitious in his first season whilst also thinking long term by reducing the wage bill, shifting dead wood and instilling an attractive style of football.

At the moment we're just being totally embarrassed and sitting bottom of the league. This is not part of the plan. It's unacceptable.

It’s not unacceptable after 3 League games to be honest 43 more left. 

Injuries haven’t helped.  

PS Aston Villa lost loads at start of their playoff season when they beat us at Wembley.

Look as them now  

 

Edited by Curtains
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1 minute ago, Curtains said:

It’s not unacceptable after 3 League games to be honest 43 more left. 

Injuries haven’t helped.  
 

It's not that we've lost three games, it's the fact that we've been dreadful in every single one of them. The football is dire and it has been for a long time. Injuries of course haven't helped but that's something you have to deal with. When a manager has to come out and start blaming the players attitude, you have to worry. What I saw last Saturday on that pitch was unacceptable. No ifs or buts. We downed tools.

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2 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

It's not that we've lost three games, it's the fact that we've been dreadful in every single one of them. The football is dire and it has been for a long time. Injuries of course haven't helped but that's something you have to deal with. When a manager has to come out and start blaming the players attitude, you have to worry. What I saw last Saturday on that pitch was unacceptable. No ifs or buts. We downed tools.

Do you realize that Blackburn smashed Wycombe 5-0 the game before. 
 

Reading and Luton are also revitalised

 

PS Cocu is actually very refreshing and rarely is a critic of players he more often praises

Edited by Curtains
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Cocu every time for me and there is one thing that divides the two of them. Integrity. Very rarely did the words that came out of Rowetts mouth correlate with his actions. He was a chancer. It ain't working for PC at the moment but I desperately want him to succeed and not just because I also want Derby to succeed. He's a good man at heart and deserves to succeed for the classy way he's dealt with everything thrown at him. 

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2 minutes ago, sunnyhill60 said:

They sacked their manager in October!

So you want Cocu sacked. 
 

I do see the dichotomy 

 

PS We don’t have Villas spending power and we wouldn’t attract easily a manager like they got from Brentford 

Edited by Curtains
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Rowett 

Knows the club inside out,  builds a solid defence, sorts teams on a reduced budget -  when he took over at Birmingham that just shipped 8 goals to Bournemouth and had no money and they finished 7th. Knows that you can't get championship teams to play like Barcelona in 2010, most premier league sides can't even manage that.

If I could have one of them as a player I'd have Cocu though.

 

 

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Blackburn’s first three goals could have easily not gone in on Saturday (their fourth was very good in fairness) 

If bird’s excellent chance had gone in and it was 1-0 at half time, everyone would be saying “what a gritty performance” etc etc 

However, it went against us so of course the narrative is “players downed tools”, “we aren’t good enough” 

It will swing I don’t doubt and we’ll get the rub of the green and win a number of games 

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33 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

I get the whole building long term I really do but there comes a point where we're actually going backwards, playing crap football and not getting results.

Rowetts football was better than what we're currently watching, it was effective and got results. In hindsight yes it didn't help us in the long term, but we had a good chance of promotion.

Lampard overall was a great fit for the club who was ambitious in his first season whilst also thinking long term by reducing the wage bill, shifting dead wood and instilling an attractive style of football.

At the moment we're just being totally embarrassed and sitting bottom of the league. This is not part of the plan. It's unacceptable.

Did we? 

Rowett was incredibly lucky in many ways. Without Vydra, we were a bottom half side that season- he was practically the only one scoring. If Rowett had had Cocu's injury record, we wouldn't have got top half, let alone top 6...

This idea that we've gone backwards is an incredibly short term perspective. If we go on a winning run and end up chasing playoffs around xmas, then the opposite will be true and we'll have definitely progressed. In terms of results, we've had a bad start but Cocu wasn't brought in simply to get results; youth progression and general wage reduction were also part of his job description, and parts he's achieved very successfully. 

So its either Rowett's unsustainable, effective-but-ugly football that only managed to get playoffs at maximum effectiveness, or Cocu's system that is taking longer to adopt but based on youth inclusion is far more sustainable and has the potential to be infinitely more successful? 

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17 minutes ago, Jram said:

Blackburn’s first three goals could have easily not gone in on Saturday (their fourth was very good in fairness) 

If bird’s excellent chance had gone in and it was 1-0 at half time, everyone would be saying “what a gritty performance” etc etc 

However, it went against us so of course the narrative is “players downed tools”, “we aren’t good enough” 

It will swing I don’t doubt and we’ll get the rub of the green and win a number of games 

We were looking promising until the Covid break and then we had to play a streak of teams better than us. Confidence dropped but other factors which still apply derailed us.

1. Lawrence injured

2. Waghorn injured

3. Rooney injured (all 3 still not fully fit)

4. Bogle, Lowe, Hudds and Martin have gone

5. 7 players in. Maybe 2 more to come

6. Lost 3 games in league, 1 in EFL

7. Apparent dip in form of young players

8. Mystery factors

We have an above average squad for this league and nobody knows what our best team will be. Rowett was strong on defence, our present team is not. Rowett does what he does best almost right away. Hard to beat, top six aspirations, not thrilling football but always competitive. Cocu is stylish and is trying to build a young team like PSV with longer term success. Different country, different decade, same plan. Do we have the right players, assuming a new ST and LB to get into top six. I think so but every player will need to up their aggression, work rate and maybe even fitness. Leeds were super fit and they trained twice a day. Will Cocu be given time to complete his plan. He will get time if results improve after the international break. If they do not improve by Xmas we will be fighting a relegation battle and he will probably have to go at Xmas. He has already proved that he can build a competitive team and he may now have a better squad but Martin looks increasingly like a massive loss. We will see. Short-term, Rowett for me. Long term, Cocu for me. 

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3 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

Did we? 

Rowett was incredibly lucky in many ways. Without Vydra, we were a bottom half side that season- he was practically the only one scoring. If Rowett had had Cocu's injury record, we wouldn't have got top half, let alone top 6...

This idea that we've gone backwards is an incredibly short term perspective. If we go on a winning run and end up chasing playoffs around xmas, then the opposite will be true and we'll have definitely progressed. In terms of results, we've had a bad start but Cocu wasn't brought in simply to get results; youth progression and general wage reduction were also part of his job description, and parts he's achieved very successfully. 

So its either Rowett's unsustainable, effective-but-ugly football that only managed to get playoffs at maximum effectiveness, or Cocu's system that is taking longer to adopt but based on youth inclusion is far more sustainable and has the potential to be infinitely more successful? 

We scored 3 or more goals in 11 games the 17/18 season.  Granted you get an abhoration or two- Sunderland and Bristol away spring to mind.  If we only got in the playoffs at maximum effectiveness, is that not what you expect from a manager, getting the most from whats avaliable.

I see neither of the above currently. 

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Rowett was a chancer no two ways about it. But you can't use oh yes he had Vydra playing for him as being luck. He used and exploited Vydra to his potential and got the best out of him which isn't down to luck. This is one thing so far I can't give Cocu any plaudits for - he doesn't seem to be able to manage effectively the resources at his disposal and get the best out of them. 

Edited by Tyler Durden
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I think, based on the constraints he was working under, if you compare both managers full seasons in charge, what Cocu managed was more of an achievement. Getting 10th place after Joiners Gate, the whole EFL nightmare and Wisdom getting stabbed was seriously good going. Just avoiding relegation was good enough during that mess of the season. Expectations are quite rightly higher this season though, so Cocu won’t have so many excuses to hide behind. Time will tell whether he can deliver and continue making progress in the long term plan. The signs aren’t good so far.

Rowett on the other hand did a decent, if unspectacular job. He’s probably overhated on here because his style of play was turgid at times, but he did still manage to take us to the playoffs. That has to be seen as a decent achievement, even though he had a quality and experienced squad which made his job easier compared to Cocu.

Edited by Millenniumram
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