Cocu or Rowett

[Spanish]

1 hour ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Afraid we have to disagree on that one.  With what's available we shouldn't have scored one goal  in 5 games against pretty mediocre opposition and conceded three in three minutes against a bog standard mid table side.  We are still in a position where we need to get promoted quickly because were losing money hand over fist/ if any young players do come on we will need to sell  to balance liability and we are back to square one . Promotion out of this league is the only way to be sustainable, even if you bomb you get a fortune. If you don't, long term your just a feeder club.

The plan isn't sustainable if people are turning off in droves,   Its an unprecedented turn of events, as amongst the occasional purple spell the fans of this club have turned up on masse to watch some of the most turgid toss available over the last 40 yrs.   They are losing interest at rates I've not encountered before. 

Looking at this team they aren't showing anything sustainable play wise, there barely putting a string of passes together.

I suspect you are right but I do not know how you can know this for certain.  When crowds return to football and we attract 18k then you have your story.  Even then there will be people blaming the virus rather than the football that is being offered up

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

9 minutes ago, Spanish said:

I suspect you are right but I do not know how you can know this for certain.  When crowds return to football and we attract 18k then you have your story.  Even then there will be people blaming the virus rather than the football that is being offered up

Your correct that I only base this on family and people I know.  Some have season tickets, my uncle is lucky enough to be able to have a box.  My dad and others who go to maybe 10 games a year. A broad base of about 30-40 people. They aren't happy .  Never thought my dad would lose interest with some of the crap he's seen, but he has. 

[RedSox]

2 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Harsh as it sounds, I don’t really give a damn about the academy and all that sort of thing. I’d happily watch a load of highly paid mercenaries if it got us success. 

I'm probably in a minority of one here, but to me that's everything that's wrong with the Prem.  Overpaid primadonna mercenaries who don't give a damn about the club - or more importantly - the supporters. Money is ruining the sport imho. I'd prefer us to stay in the Champ until we can get promotion with an ethos like Cocu is trying to instill, than to buy our way up with a team of mercenaries.

[Rammy03]

17 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

You can't just dismiss that when the point is Rowett always had his best players available which enabled his sides to be effective. I'm not sure Cocu has had the luxury of a full strength, first choice XI once

Yes I know and I'm not dismissing it. Cocu has had his fair share of bad luck but in my opinion he should still be doing better with what he has available. Even when our best players were fit last season we were so unconvincing, even in victory. The football is slow and boring. I'm pretty sure this is not what he's trying to achieve but the fact is, that is what we're seeing and it's not good enough.

[Rammy03]

5 minutes ago, RedSox said:

I'm probably in a minority of one here, but to me that's everything that's wrong with the Prem.  Overpaid primadonna mercenaries who don't give a damn about the club - or more importantly - the supporters. Money is ruining the sport imho

I get what you're saying but it's not entirely true. I wouldn't say the Liverpool team are primadonna mercenaries who don't care about the club, for example, even though they are overpaid.

[Rammy03]

38 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

I strongly disagree - The Fulham away game showed what we were - Efficient and hard working but no quality - Exactly the definition of a Rowett side - Fulham showed what a difference some quality made and they should have beaten us by a lot more than 2 0

We whimpered out at Fulham. It was very disappointing.

[cheron85]

Just now, Rammy03 said:

We whimpered out at Fulham. It was very disappointing.

Yeh - But I remember being in the stands and couldn't fault the effort of the players - They ran and ran - And got completely outplayed from start to finish because we just had so little quality 

 

[cannable]

15 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

Yeh - But I remember being in the stands and couldn't fault the effort of the players - They ran and ran - And got completely outplayed from start to finish because we just had so little quality 

 

Full time after that first leg is the most shattered I’ve ever seen a team after 90 minutes 

[RedSox]

33 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

I get what you're saying but it's not entirely true. I wouldn't say the Liverpool team are primadonna mercenaries who don't care about the club, for example, even though they are overpaid.

Liverpool is in a minority of one as well! ?

[nottingram]

Rowett built a team for pretty much a one season tilt at promotion. Loads of players on massive wages, old, and he sold off the Crown Jewels to do it. He did create a decent saleable asset out of Vydra to be fair (before he dropped him at crunch time) and the second leg of the play offs was pathetic. Then rather than stay to fix the mess he created he cleared off at the second opportunity. He has rightly been criticised for the short termism.

Lampard sorted some of the mess and built upon the rest of it with more short termism albeit we did get to see some fantastic players.

Then we finally get in a manager who actually wants to prioritise the long term, who wants to develop our own young players and is happy working with a work in progress full of players with resale value and we want to bin him off after 3 games of his second season. I don’t think many teams could cope with the squad he has to pick from (maybe some ultra short term types might get a tune out of them) but we have gone from poo show to poo show under him through no fault of his own. Genuinely think he has been let down badly through years of mismanagement prior to him joining and I’d be very surprised if the current situation was sold to him as part of him joining us. I’m not sure I would blame him if he had walked at any point to be honest, let alone us choosing to get rid of him.

[Millenniumram]

51 minutes ago, RedSox said:

I'm probably in a minority of one here, but to me that's everything that's wrong with the Prem.  Overpaid primadonna mercenaries who don't give a damn about the club - or more importantly - the supporters. Money is ruining the sport imho. I'd prefer us to stay in the Champ until we can get promotion with an ethos like Cocu is trying to instill, than to buy our way up with a team of mercenaries.

It’s an argument I’ve heard before, and I get where you’re coming from, but I just can’t feel the same. There’s a lot of money in the game nowadays, and that’s not going to change. Good players now tend to be overpaid primadonnas, that’s just the way football is. Personally, all I care about is seeing my team be successful. If that means playing a load of Bamfords then so be it - if they deliver results and finally get us back to the Prem, then I’m sure I can live with it.

[Millenniumram]

4 hours ago, Rammy03 said:

But he will because half the fanbase are blaming it on injuries. If they return and we're still crap it'll be 'new players need time to get up to speed.' The excuses never end for this bloke and I can't figure out why. I want him to succeed I really do but no one is bigger than the club. These performances have to be criticised for what they are, an absolute shambles.

100% agree, though I do think we’re now seeing a shift into it only being a minority of fans that are coming up with excuses for Cocu. Think the majority are now becoming a bit fed up and expect Cocu to be doing better, though there aren’t many actually calling for Cocu’s head just yet, which I think is fair.

The excuses do have to stop at some point though. Last season, there were plenty of genuine excuses imo. As I’ve said, Joiners Gate, the whole EFL debacle and Wisdom getting stabbed were all ridiculous events that no one could have predicted, all of which massively negatively affected the job that Cocu could manage last year. It’s absolutely fair enough that we were much more lenient on Cocu last season, it was only fair given everything that went on.

This season however? I’m not seeing anything out of the ordinary that other teams in the league aren’t having to deal with. Everyone is having to deal with the financial fallout caused by COVID, and injuries are always a part of football. You have to be able to deal with them. Sure we’ve got a few decent players out in the likes of Waghorn, Lawrence and Bielik, but I’m not seeing an injury crisis here. We still have a very strong squad to choose from. A squad that should be able to perform better against the likes of Luton and Blackburn.

The whole “Poor Derby can’t possibly compete with Luton without everyone in the squad being fit” line that some fans have been spouting really pisses me off. That really is just making up excuses for poor managerial and team performance. I mean if Cocu really is only capable of getting a team to perform when he’s got everyone available for selection then we may as well give up now. You always have injuries in football. As soon as Bielik is back, someone else will get injured. That’s the nature of the game, and it’s exactly why you have squad players. I don’t want to see injuries being continuously used as an excuse, Cocu must do better with the players he has available. Frankly, I hardly think Lawrence and Waghorn would absolutely transform this team anyway. They’re both good players, but they won’t transform this team from losing 4-0 at Blackburn to beating Bournemouth by themselves.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

8 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

100% agree, though I do think we’re now seeing a shift into it only being a minority of fans that are coming up with excuses for Cocu. Think the majority are now becoming a bit fed up and expect Cocu to be doing better, though there aren’t many actually calling for Cocu’s head just yet, which I think is fair.

The excuses do have to stop at some point though. Last season, there were plenty of genuine excuses imo. As I’ve said, Joiners Gate, the whole EFL debacle and Wisdom getting stabbed were all ridiculous events that no one could have predicted, all of which massively negatively affected the job that Cocu could manage last year. It’s absolutely fair enough that we were much more lenient on Cocu last season, it was only fair given everything that went on.

This season however? I’m not seeing anything out of the ordinary that other teams in the league aren’t having to deal with. Everyone is having to deal with the financial fallout caused by COVID, and injuries are always a part of football. You have to be able to deal with them. Sure we’ve got a few decent players out in the likes of Waghorn, Lawrence and Bielik, but I’m not seeing an injury crisis here. We still have a very strong squad to choose from. A squad that should be able to perform better against the likes of Luton and Blackburn.

The whole “Poor Derby can’t possibly compete with Luton without everyone in the squad being fit” line that some fans have been spouting really pisses me off. That really is just making up excuses for poor managerial and team performance. I mean if Cocu really is only capable of getting a team to perform when he’s got everyone available for selection then we may as well give up now. You always have injuries in football. As soon as Bielik is back, someone else will get injured. That’s the nature of the game, and it’s exactly why you have squad players. I don’t want to see injuries being continuously used as an excuse, Cocu must do better with the players he has available. Frankly, I hardly think Lawrence and Waghorn would absolutely transform this team anyway. They’re both good players, but they won’t transform this team from losing 4-0 at Blackburn to beating Bournemouth by themselves.

Who has said that? I have pointed out that having 50% of your outfield team made up of inexperienced youngsters is not likely to get you a win against any team fielding tough physical players who are pretty good at what they do. Is that what you mean?

[Millenniumram]

8 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

Who has said that? I have pointed out that having 50% of your outfield team made up of inexperienced youngsters is not likely to get you a win against any team fielding tough physical players who are pretty good at what they do. Is that what you mean?

That sort of comment and other posts, yes. We had a squad available that should have been able to beat Luton, simple as. Plenty of experience in there with Clarke, Wisdom, Shinnie, Forsyth, Byrne etc. Fed up of seeing excuse after excuse to defend poor results. Just call it what it is, a poo result. Doesn’t mean calling for the managers head, just saying it how it is. I’ve seen posts saying we’re always going to struggle without Bielik, Waghorn and Lawrence etc, which just isn’t true imo. We still have enough quality in the rest of our squad to perform better.

Seems to me no matter how bad things are, some fans always have an excuse. It’s like a Government Coronavirus briefing at times. If we don’t sort things out, we’ll be “excusing” ourselves into League 1.

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, nottingram said:

Rowett built a team for pretty much a one season tilt at promotion...Then rather than stay to fix the mess he created he cleared off at the second opportunity. He has rightly been criticised for the short termism.

If Mel had appointed another 'Rowett type' manager it might not have been short-termism and him going and Vydra would have funded it?

[Alph]

For me it comes down to who I'd rather listen to. Cocu wins. 

Rowett is good at what he does though. One of the best counter attacking managers in the league?

[Curtains]

36 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

That sort of comment and other posts, yes. We had a squad available that should have been able to beat Luton, simple as. Plenty of experience in there with Clarke, Wisdom, Shinnie, Forsyth, Byrne etc. Fed up of seeing excuse after excuse to defend poor results. Just call it what it is, a poo result. Doesn’t mean calling for the managers head, just saying it how it is. I’ve seen posts saying we’re always going to struggle without Bielik, Waghorn and Lawrence etc, which just isn’t true imo. We still have enough quality in the rest of our squad to perform better.

Seems to me no matter how bad things are, some fans always have an excuse. It’s like a Government Coronavirus briefing at times. If we don’t sort things out, we’ll be “excusing” ourselves into League 1.

I bet you 100 pounds we don’t get relegated 

[Alph]

30 minutes ago, Curtains said:

I bet you 100 pounds we don’t get relegated 

Not a sentence I was hoping to read this season!

[Shaftesbury st]

7 hours ago, Curtains said:

Now coming from me this could be interesting.

Cocu is more long term and that’s why MM hired him 

Rowett wanted success short term .

I like them both and Frank really impressed me. 

Rowett wanted money to spend and if he was promised what Lampard had and what Cocu’s getting then although not masses maybe he would have stayed. 
What I will say is Rowett would get more out of this crop of players, no doubt about that. 

[May Contain Nuts]

 

1 hour ago, Millenniumram said:

We had a squad available that should have been able to beat Luton, simple as

Yeah, dead simple!

Since they reappointed Nathan Jones (who was on his way to relegating Stoke let's not forget, so clearly a poo manager / motivator given their squad!) all of Preston, Leeds, Swansea, Reading, Huddersfield, QPR, Hull (what does losing your top scorer and best winger matter, huh?) Blackburn & Norwich have failed to beat Luton.

OK, Reading did, last season - they won 5-0 at Kenilworth Rd late in the season but lost to them at home this season.

The only teams to beat Luton since June are Reading, Man Utd & Watford.

We actually played pretty well against them second half, the game could have gone either way but it's another that's been rewritten as 'poo' 'backwards, sidewards' in its entirety.