Ivan Toney - Signed for Brentford

[SouthernRam]

Linked with West Brom and Fulham now and seems to be after a PL move. If anyone in the Championship signs him it will be Brentford. £5 million being touted already, so well out of our price range. 

[jimbobram]

1 hour ago, SouthernRam said:

Linked with West Brom and Fulham now and seems to be after a PL move. If anyone in the Championship signs him it will be Brentford. £5 million being touted already, so well out of our price range. 

5 Mil is being talked about by the press, however the chairman is looking for double that. He wont sell for 5. Not a chance. 

[MaltRam]

On 11/08/2020 at 22:26, tomsdubs said:

Woeful take my friend, he always worked hard for the team without the ball.

But on the ball he was inclined to get his head down and play for himself over playing in team-mates, so i think @B4ev6is has a point.

Won't be signing him however, although I'd still have him back if it were possible.

[tomsdubs]

5 minutes ago, Needlesh said:

But on the ball he was inclined to get his head down and play for himself over playing in team-mates, so i think @B4ev6is has a point.

Won't be signing him however, although I'd still have him back if it were possible.

We could only dream of having a player with this stats in side now, 11 goals in his first 18 games from wide then signed permanently with regular goals and assists. Marriott does a similar thing of having a go himself sometimes when a better option is there but that is part of being a goal scorer.

[May Contain Nuts]

2 hours ago, IlsonDerby said:

This is a weak argument sorry. It’s like saying ‘oh well obviously Messi has such great stats, every attack at Barca goes through him’. I’m not comparing the two players just showing that the argument doesn’t mean much.

Obviously the most play comes from the most influential player. Players won’t pass to him ‘3 - 4 times more’ (where did you get this stat from?) often than other players if they didn’t trust him to back it up with the goods... which he did.

I don’t over rate him. I think he was a good, consistent winger for us. Bairds ball to him and him making their left back fall over before scoring against Forest is one of my favourite recent time memories. 

What seems to be happening and what I have a problem with, is he seems to be being underrated because his spells elsewhere didn’t work out amazingly. And then when we bring up his stats for us we’re told they are meaningless.

You can’t use ‘he’s had more shots than any other player’ as a stick to beat him with and then use ‘he gets the ball 3-4 times more than anyone else hence why he has higher stats’ as another stick to beat him with? One causes the other.
 

It's a perfectly valid argument, you just don't agree.

I'm not saying his stats are meaningless, I'm saying they need to be looked at in a wider context. Simple.

The shots stat (in comparison to his teammates) is just the easiest one to bring out, admittedly I've overused it now. It's a simple representation of how wasteful he can be and how much opportunity he needs to be given in order to produce, and it's amazing how it's just excused and brushed under the carpet. Couple those wasted shots with the number opportunities passed up to present a chance to another player in a better position and you have one very wasteful player.

'3 to 4 times more' wasn't a stat, it was a generalisation (and like all generalisations, a slight exaggeration) based on, you know, watching Derby County before, during and after Ince's spell here.

Some players are genuinely a class above those in the rest of your team (Ince was not one of them) giving them the ball more is warranted to some degree and the positives will outweigh the negatives. When giving an average Championship inside-forward free reign, one who barely ever provides a genuine goal scoring chance for his teammates then the negatives will outweigh the positives, regardless of their individual statistics.

Is that so difficult to understand?

If next season we continue to give the ball to Rooney more often than is warranted we'll run into problems too, because he's no longer peforming at a high enough standard or in any influential enough position on the pitch for it to be the correct option.

 

1 hour ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Perhaps the others should shoot more, bizarre argument. His goals record and assists speak for themselves. No guarantee he would be that good for us again though, but better than what we currently have

Only Wilson compares in recent times and he took penalties.

"Perhaps the others should shoot more". Good one ?

Maybe they would have done if Ince had ever given them the ball in a good position to do so?

If his goal / assists record speaks for itself you can't just blank out anything that's happened since 2017. 3 goals & 2 assists in 63 Championship appearances (9/9 in 76) is not the sign of a player who's better than what we have.

Honestly (well almost, I am joking a little), if your only interest was goals/assists as a measure of the player, then based on the way things stand in 2020 you'd be better off re-signing Andreas bloody Weimann! (89 appearances, 19 goals, 13 assists in the same period). I mean he's rubbish with a capital R, I wouldn't touch him with yours, but he'd be he'd be a better fit for us right now - at least he has some pace to run in behind!

Final thing - Wilson isn't a valid comparison at all!

He was part of a team where mostly everyone was treated equally & given the same level of responsibility on the pitch. None of those who appeared on the 'wing', be it Waghorn, Mount (genuinely a class above), Wilson (questionably a class above), Bennett (no class), Holmes, Lawrence, Josefzoon or anyone else were given special treatment, they either contributed or they didn't.

Some players rose to prominence, others fell to obscurity, but it wasn't because the tactics singled out any of them for special attention.

 

2 hours ago, Anag Ram said:

I keep clicking on this link hoping for an update on an up and coming young star only to read about a has been. 

Yep, I know, sorry! You can blame the glassy eyed brigade for that, if they stopped suggesting we sign the has-been there'd be nothing to reply to!

[MaltRam]

5 minutes ago, tomsdubs said:

We could only dream of having a player with this stats in side now, 11 goals in his first 18 games from wide then signed permanently with regular goals and assists. Marriott does a similar thing of having a go himself sometimes when a better option is there but that is part of being a goal scorer.

Wonder what Sibbo and Knight's goalscoring stats look like?

[tomsdubs]

6 minutes ago, Needlesh said:

Wonder what Sibbo and Knight's goalscoring stats look like?

SIbley is on 11 apps with 5 goals and 2 assists, not a bad start. Be interesting to see how he goes over a full season, either way we need some wingers at the club. You can tell it was one of Cocu's biggest frustrations by they way he kept trying different options.

[MaltRam]

 

5 minutes ago, tomsdubs said:

SIbley is on 11 apps with 5 goals and 2 assists, not a bad start. Be interesting to see how he goes over a full season, either way we need some wingers at the club. You can tell it was one of Cocu's biggest frustrations by they way he kept trying different options.

Deffo. Never replaced Jamie Ward! Or Johnny Russell.

[May Contain Nuts]

2 hours ago, GrimsbyRam said:

Remind me how many games we lost when he scored?

The most Twittery statistic ever, literally shows nothing. I wasn't calling his stats meaningless in the other post, but in this case that is the very definition of a meaningless stat.

How many games did we lose / fail to win when our forced and unnecessary over-reliance on Ince didn't result in him scoring a goal? How did the resultant lack of genuine goalscoring chances for other players effect their form over the course of the season and how many points did we lose as a result?

44 minutes ago, tomsdubs said:

We could only dream of having a player with this stats in side now, 11 goals in his first 18 games from wide then signed permanently with regular goals and assists. Marriott does a similar thing of having a go himself sometimes when a better option is there but that is part of being a goal scorer.

They're great stats, but the where, why & how of them isn't a great story.

We were in the perfect position / situation for Ince to come in and make an impact, although he wouldn't have done so if we hadn't also brought Bent in. Fair play to him he took advantage of that (as did Bent), I'm not denying that.

Good goalscorers shouldn't need 9 shots per goal during the purple patch of their career though.

17 minutes ago, Needlesh said:

Deffo. Never replaced Jamie Ward! Or Johnny Russell.

Too right!

Good examples of players who don't have the same stats at Derby as Ince or grab the headlines, weren't treated as being 'better' than the rest and contributed well to teams which were greater than the sum of their parts.

We also didn't even replace Dawkins adequately - we could do with a player up there who links up with others in tight spaces and doesn't just stupidly concede possession!

[Reggie Greenwood]

43 minutes ago, Coconut said:

The most Twittery statistic ever, literally shows nothing. I wasn't calling his stats meaningless in the other post, but in this case that is the very definition of a meaningless stat.

How many games did we lose / fail to win when our forced and unnecessary over-reliance on Ince didn't result in him scoring a goal? How did the resultant lack of genuine goalscoring chances for other players effect their form over the course of the season and how many points did we lose as a result?

They're great stats, but the where, why & how of them isn't a great story.

We were in the perfect position / situation for Ince to come in and make an impact, although he wouldn't have done so if we hadn't also brought Bent in. Fair play to him he took advantage of that (as did Bent), I'm not denying that.

Good goalscorers shouldn't need 9 shots per goal during the purple patch of their career though.

Too right!

Good examples of players who don't have the same stats at Derby as Ince or grab the headlines, weren't treated as being 'better' than the rest and contributed well to teams which were greater than the sum of their parts.

We also didn't even replace Dawkins adequately - we could do with a player up there who links up with others in tight spaces and doesn't just stupidly concede possession!

Who set off Marklaa's Ince alarm ?? Isn't there an Ince thread this can be taken to so the rest of us can find out when Ivan has signed for someone else ?

[GrimsbyRam]

6 hours ago, Coconut said:

The most Twittery statistic ever, literally shows nothing. I wasn't calling his stats meaningless in the other post, but in this case that is the very definition of a meaningless stat.

How many games did we lose / fail to win when our forced and unnecessary over-reliance on Ince didn't result in him scoring a goal? How did the resultant lack of genuine goalscoring chances for other players effect their form over the course of the season and how many points did we lose as a result?

They're great stats, but the where, why & how of them isn't a great story.

We were in the perfect position / situation for Ince to come in and make an impact, although he wouldn't have done so if we hadn't also brought Bent in. Fair play to him he took advantage of that (as did Bent), I'm not denying that.

Good goalscorers shouldn't need 9 shots per goal during the purple patch of their career though.

Too right!

Good examples of players who don't have the same stats at Derby as Ince or grab the headlines, weren't treated as being 'better' than the rest and contributed well to teams which were greater than the sum of their parts.

We also didn't even replace Dawkins adequately - we could do with a player up there who links up with others in tight spaces and doesn't just stupidly concede possession!

Couldn’t find (m)any then I see! Shows he is a game turner.

[Floppy Sausage]

Ince? duck me backwards, no thanks!

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

2 minutes ago, Floppy Sausage said:

Ince? duck me backwards, no thanks!

Ince was quality. 

[Floppy Sausage]

1 minute ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:Ince was quality. 

Under McClaren. He was tosh the rest of time, and has been since.

[YorkshireRam]

24 minutes ago, Floppy Sausage said:

Under McClaren. He was tosh the rest of time, and has been since.

except arguably his best game was under Clement...?
 

 

[May Contain Nuts]

38 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

Ince was quality. 

Ince was a 7/10 Championship winger elevated to an 8.5/10 Championship winger at the expense of 7.5/10 Championship wingers being demoted to 4/10 Championship wingers.

Nowadays he himself is a 5/10 Championship winger with nothing to offer anyone who isn't willing to trade the progress of other players for 10 goals a season and all the wasted opportunities that come with him achieving that. 

Anyone wanting to build a team for long term success either won't touch him or will use him sparingly off the bench or in rotation, like McClaren used to use Bamford & Ibe.

Anyone who is willing to give him the level of opportunity needed for him to perform to a consistent 7/10  level in the Championship and score 10+ goals will find themselves wondering why all the other creative players in their team have regressed while his own stats have been decent. 

it seems that people are still making the same mistakes when reading my posts about Ince that they always did.

I've got nothing against the bloke himself, the problem is  the elevated  position and esteem lots of people seem to hold him in without using any critical thought, just quoting goals and unimpressive assist stats at me in order to win the popularist argument that he's an upper class Championship winger, clinical Infront of goal and a boon for any team's chances of success, single handedly dragging teams out of a slump with a superior ability he doesn't actually possess.

[Jimbo Ram]

5 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Ince was a 7/10 Championship winger elevated to an 8.5/10 Championship winger at the expense of 7.5/10 Championship wingers being demoted to 4/10 Championship wingers.

Nowadays he himself is a 5/10 Championship winger with nothing to offer anyone who isn't willing to trade the progress of other players for 10 goals a season and all the wasted opportunities that come with him achieving that. 

Anyone wanting to build a team for long term success either won't touch him or will use him sparingly off the bench or in rotation, like McClaren used to use Bamford & Ibe.

Anyone who is willing to give him the level of opportunity needed for him to perform to a consistent 7/10  level in the Championship and score 10+ goals will find themselves wondering why all the other creative players in their team have regressed while his own stats have been decent. 

Can you give us a few more useless stats on why you don’t rate Ince......please.......if we ask really nicely......just so we are all clear. What’s his shots per goal ratio again ????

[May Contain Nuts]

51 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Can you give us a few more useless stats on why you don’t rate Ince......please.......if we ask really nicely......just so we are all clear. What’s his shots per goal ratio again ????

Easy, it's ducking poo. He's shoots a disproportionate number of times for his actual ability, and an inordinate number of times compared to his teammates, which is often to the detriment of other players and the team in general.

All the evidence is there that he's not the player you think he is,  based on a very reasoned, fair and explained analysis of his entire career, not just a very specific period of it where Derby County gradually became geared towards the progress of one player than the club as a whole.

It's there for all to see.

If you can't put up a reasoned debate and back it up, but only seek to ridicule anyone capable of the critical thought that's not my problem.

Your one and only line of debate is "yeah but he scored lots of goals and made.. some.. assists, therefore he must have been a great player and anyone who disagrees is either confused or hates him"

If you think "how often did we lose when Ince scored?" presents a more viable and useful statistic that reflects more on your inability to see the overall picture than it does in anything I've said.

He's an increasingly average Championship winger, suck it the duck up and stop pretending he's something he isn't.

Attempting to ridicule me for that opinion won't get you anywhere.

I do rate Ince, on the level he deserves to be rated, not your fantasy BS level of him being too good for the Championship.

He's got one key strength to his game, cutting inside and having a shot across the keeper, but only if you set up your team to make sure that he gets every opportunity to do that and duck everyone else! If you don't do, and don't create the space for him to do that, then he's lost! 

It's been proven time, and time again. And again, just because you can't see that, it's not my problem!

[May Contain Nuts]

...and that's my final post on the matter, for now, no matter what popularist, easy, point scoring  crap the delusional, short sighted, let's treat average players like a deity and pray for their return whether they'd fit in or not brigade has to say.

I'm not rising to the bait of people again for at least another 3 months

Oh Ok, weeks? ?

[Carnero]

Oops... My mistake I thought this was an Ivan Toney transfer thread....