IslandExile Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 3 hours ago, RedSox said: One for the conspiracy theorists, but is there any chance the EFL (knowing they are on thin ice)are dragging things out to cause us as much disruption to our transfer plans? Surely we will remain in limbo until it's sorted out. Just a thought.... Or to do the points deduction next season and scupper promotion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanderby Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 51 minutes ago, The Orange Pimpernel said: I wonder if the clubs (Derby & Wednesday) have been given a judgement date? They both seem very quiet about the perceived delay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 1 hour ago, shanderby said: One of the better first ever posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab a dab doo Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 Maybe they think silence could end up being bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Sagan Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 4 hours ago, Tamworthram said: I wonder what higher body Sheffield Wednesday in particular could complain to. There's always the Court for Arbitration in Sport which is the highest authority and the ones who got Man City out of their Champions League ban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkle Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 22 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said: There's always the Court for Arbitration in Sport which is the highest authority and the ones who got Man City out of their Champions League ban. Which doesn’t bode well for the EFL it seems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 4 hours ago, The Key Club King said: You have to remember that most supporters think that the EFL has an agenda against their club, a bit like referees. Either they are spectacularly good at deliberately upsetting everyone, or all football fans are incredibly biased in favour of their own club. I think it's more that the EFL are so shoddily run that they make the wrong decision in almost every case - Which means that they're not biased against any club but they absolutely do screw over every club (given half a chance) - I just don't think they're ever doing it on purpose (incompetence and malice can look incredibly similar) 4 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said: I suspect it's far more boring and there's the independent panel just dragging their way through a ton of heavy legal documents and assessing how they relate to the arguments presented at the hearing. Agreed - We're all judging it from the benefit of a quick summary of the facts - They will need to pore over every line of the accounts etc etc as well as the legal documents drafted by both sides AND the rules (both now and previous) which the EFL run on 34 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said: There's always the Court for Arbitration in Sport which is the highest authority and the ones who got Man City out of their Champions League ban. This is an interesting one - I think City might have set a precedent here and more clubs are likely to appeal However, I think the problem clubs will have is time frames - If Wigan lose their EFL appeal they will be playing League One football next year - Even if they take the case to CAS it'll take time to process by which time the season has started - In that case what happens? They get immediately swapped? Some level of financial recompense? The case of getting European football or not, or transfer bans etc is very different from being able to appeal a relegation which has already come into effect - Purely from a time basis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 15 hours ago, cheron85 said: Agreed - We're all judging it from the benefit of a quick summary of the facts - They will need to pore over every line of the accounts Why will they need to go every line of the accounts? We've not been charged with financial irregularities have we? The charge relates to 2 specific items as far as I am aware and should have outcomes extremely easy to determine. Sale of ground - was it allowed under the rules? Yes or no answer. Was the correct valuation used? Read the professional valuation and reach your conclusion. Player amortisation policy - was it allowed under the rules? Yes or no answer. Were the correct residual values used? Given that we are now at the end of the 2020 season and the charge relates to 2018, I think there is sufficient subsequent information available to see if we are valuing players correctly. If its found that either have been used incorrectly, how much have we overstated profits/understated losses by? Did we try and hide our accounting policies from the EFL or would a competent body have been fully aware of what we were doing? Whay evidence can DCFC supply that shows the EFL were informed of our decisions at every step of the way? Both the ground valuation and amortisation policy are stated in the accounts for starters and if we have further written confirmations from the EFL I really dont see how they can have a leg to stand on. As far as I can see it really should be as simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester40 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 15 hours ago, cheron85 said: The case of getting European football or not, or transfer bans etc is very different from being able to appeal a relegation which has already come into effect - Purely from a time basis Is this correct though? City's offences were pretty historic. But by appealing they were able to put off the implementation of the ban until it was decided. So Wigan could appeal and the decision would have to be withheld until its heard.... In practice no idea how that works..its precisely why the EFL changed the implementation so clubs can't take the point deduction at the time it suited them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: Why will they need to go every line of the accounts? I just think they will - If a question is raised about financial irregularity I really think they will go back over all the finances with a fine(ance) tooth comb I may be wrong but my experience of lawyers / any legal representation is that horrific levels of detail is always involved 56 minutes ago, Chester40 said: Is this correct though? City's offences were pretty historic. But by appealing they were able to put off the implementation of the ban until it was decided. So Wigan could appeal and the decision would have to be withheld until its heard.... In practice no idea how that works..its precisely why the EFL changed the implementation so clubs can't take the point deduction at the time it suited them. I think it would be yes - Man City's European ban affected only them - The competitions could still run regardless of the outcome and the lifting of the ban enabled them to qualify for whatever the next competition entry point was / is If we received a points deduction which relegated us I would be very surprised if they delayed the championship and league one start dates in order to let us finish our appeal - That affects 47 other teams too - I suspect the league would use that stick to make us swallow whatever punishment they handed out - Or we'd risk being kicked out of the league entirely if they couldn't schedule our games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, cheron85 said: ....I suspect the league would use that stick to make us swallow whatever punishment they handed out - Or we'd risk being kicked out of the league entirely if they couldn't schedule our games You can't have a 'justice' system that allows appeals only if the timing suits the governing body. If (big IF) we're found guilty, we have a right to appeal - as other clubs have in the past. Any issue with the timing (and impact) of such an appeal lies fairly and squarely with the EFL and is due in no small part to their incompetence in resolving these issues earlier. As it is, they're effectively screwing our transfer window (along with Wednesday's) and leaving a cloud hanging over both clubs and also Wigan and Barnsley..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falconram Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 However wins the outcome the other will appeal, EFL have shown this with the last case against Birmingham. MM put out a strongly worded message in the media which I'm sure he would appeal against if found guilty, this will just drag on and in the end loop holes closed and we change our accounting method. Face saving is what it's down too and shows that the EFL are not upto governing the football league, changes are needed and clubs know this, you see it by both Barnsley and Preston's media messages, patience is wearing thin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Gaspode said: You can't have a 'justice' system that allows appeals only if the timing suits the governing body. If (big IF) we're found guilty, we have a right to appeal - as other clubs have in the past. Any issue with the timing (and impact) of such an appeal lies fairly and squarely with the EFL and is due in no small part to their incompetence in resolving these issues earlier. As it is, they're effectively screwing our transfer window (along with Wednesday's) and leaving a cloud hanging over both clubs and also Wigan and Barnsley..... It would be nice if the running of the league was that pure - But it's not We will have the right to appeal - But this is a member organisation not held together by law but by the agreement of it's members - The EFL will simply call a vote and ask the other member clubs if they were happy to delay the season to wait for our appeal to be concluded - I don't see that vote going our way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, falconram said: However wins the outcome the other will appeal, EFL have shown this with the last case against Birmingham. MM put out a strongly worded message in the media which I'm sure he would appeal against if found guilty, this will just drag on and in the end loop holes closed and we change our accounting method. Face saving is what it's down too and shows that the EFL are not upto governing the football league, changes are needed and clubs know this, you see it by both Barnsley and Preston's media messages, patience is wearing thin. I'm not sure. I'm sure Mel would want to protect the reputation of both the club and himself. However, if we were found guilty but due to mitigating circumstances (checking everything with the EFL beforehand etc.) The punishment was very minor (a slap on the wrist and/or a relatively small fine for example) I'd hope Mel and the club would put out some kind of statement along the lines of still claiming innocence but in the interests of closing the matter we won't appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 11 minutes ago, cheron85 said: It would be nice if the running of the league was that pure - But it's not We will have the right to appeal - But this is a member organisation not held together by law but by the agreement of it's members - The EFL will simply call a vote and ask the other member clubs if they were happy to delay the season to wait for our appeal to be concluded - I don't see that vote going our way Wigan are guilty until proven innocent - they're down unless their appeal says otherwise. They may be able to appeal again, but they have a cut-off date to avoid relegation. If they win after that cut-off, they will be in L1 but receive compensation. Us and SWFC are innocent until proven guilty. We are Championship clubs with no penalty. If a verdict is reached before the cut-off date which finds us guilty but we don't appeal, we'll get that penalty for the 19/20 season. If a verdict is reached after that cut-off date, then any possible penalty will be from the 20/21 season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Us and SWFC are innocent until proven guilty. We are Championship clubs with no penalty. If a verdict is reached before the cut-off date which finds us guilty but we don't appeal, we'll get that penalty for the 19/20 season. If a verdict is reached after that cut-off date, then any possible penalty will be from the 20/21 season. Missed it, what's the cut-off date for us then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 13 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Missed it, what's the cut-off date for us then? The season officially ends on 4th August (last game of the season) but I think I read somewhere that any decision has to be made before mid-August. I'll try to dig it up but I may actually be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 37 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Us and SWFC are innocent until proven guilty. We are Championship clubs with no penalty. If a verdict is reached before the cut-off date which finds us guilty but we don't appeal, we'll get that penalty for the 19/20 season. If a verdict is reached after that cut-off date, then any possible penalty will be from the 20/21 season. We're innocent now yes - But if we're found guilty and docked enough points to relegate us this season we'll then be presumed guilty like Wigan are - We will then have to appeal to get that presumption of guilt over-turned - By which time we'll be playing League One football Personally I think if we get a points deduction it will be 12 or lower and they will tack it on to next season to screw us for another season - That's the exact level of petty I expect from the EFL - And I don't think they will risk an appeal running across seasons because of the tricky implications of doing so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 17 minutes ago, cheron85 said: We're innocent now yes - But if we're found guilty and docked enough points to relegate us this season we'll then be presumed guilty like Wigan are - We will then have to appeal to get that presumption of guilt over-turned - By which time we'll be playing League One football Personally I think if we get a points deduction it will be 12 or lower and they will tack it on to next season to screw us for another season - That's the exact level of petty I expect from the EFL - And I don't think they will risk an appeal running across seasons because of the tricky implications of doing so If we're docked enough points to relegate us we'll appeal that decision. We'll remain 'innocent' until the verdict from the appeal is reached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 36 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: If we're docked enough points to relegate us we'll appeal that decision. We'll remain 'innocent' until the verdict from the appeal is reached. That seems doubtful to me - Every other club has been found guilty and suffered the punishment until the appeal can overturn it Chelsea had a transfer ban until they won on appeal, Man City couldn't enter a European competition until it was over turned and Wigan have been docked the points at the moment despite the decision being under appeal Once found guilty the presumption is guilt - And appeal has to over-turn that - That's the way the law works and seems to be reflected in the actions of all football bodies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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