Let’s be positive.

[ramboy63]

7 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

You shouldn't get pelters for stating what should be obvious. I recall a few years back a Forest supporting mate barking on about there academy and how great there kids were. Not so, They were just in the same position playing them out of necessity, rather than choice the occasional Burke or Lacelles excepted.  Think it was Reg Harrison who summed it up when asked how Derby went from cup winners and league runners up to division 3 in a few years -we tried to make do and mend, in football you can never make do and mend.  I would hope that the club would already know this. If they get 3 or 4 regular first teamers from a couple of academy years there doing well.

 

Yes i have to agree football never stands still,Liverpool are by far and away the best team at present it wont stop them looking to improve there squad this summer.

Bird,Bogle and Lowe are ready for the Championship the rest should be given more time to develop ,Sibleys sending off was out of sheer frustration last night but you can look at all the youngsters last night and say the same,they need time but have we got any funds to get enough strength in depth for next season 

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, ramboy63 said:

Sibleys sending off was out of sheer frustration last night 

What!?! 

You can't be serious. What other player wouldn't have tried to free his leg?

[Ellafella]

10 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Cocu isn't going anywhere. We know that we have to get behind him and what he's trying to do. I think he deserves a lot of credit for turning this season around.

Of course, I want him to succeed. Do I think he has what it takes to take us up a gear? I'm not convinced. His tactics, his team selections, his decision making too often misses the mark for me. A lot of times where you would expect a manager of his calibre to make a difference, he seems to be lacking.

If I'm honest, he's a little too conservative and a little inflexible for me. Sometimes I think the dedication to the approach can be our undoing. Possession football can be fantastic if you have the zip, verve and vision to match, but it can also be excruciating to watch.

We have seen some good signs this season. In 7-8 games, we have looked unplayable. I imagine it'll be more effective when Cocu has more of his own players and the young players get to grips with the league.

I suspect we'll end up in the play-offs next season if we have a good summer. Do I see us getting promoted? Not unless there are some inspired changes.

Teams are already figuring out how to nullify us, so I just feel it's going to be more challenging to continue on this trajectory than people imagine. We either need an injection of some real difference-making quality on the pitch, or some intervention from the manager when it comes to tactics and decision making.

We all know that we haven't got the finances to pour in the extra quality like WBA or Fulham have been able to do. So maybe Cocu has to step it up from the sidelines, so we can become more of a puzzle for the opposition.

4 great points; Really want PC to succeed but after the last 2 games these points come to the fore. And we really MUST address the discipline; ok so Sibley’s red was ridiculous from a sub-standard referee but Lawrence and Waghorn need a serious talking to. As Sky quoted, we’re the team with the most red cards this season in the Championship. 

[Millenniumram]

6 hours ago, IslandExile said:

Though I'm sure Mel wants to see fruition from his funding of the academy, isn't part of the reason for playing so many youngsters out of necessity?

Having chopped out a lot of the deadwood, we no longer have so many senior players in the squad. Less so when two of the more creative players are suspended, another two injured.

It appears we do not have the funds to buy in more players. So, as much as anything, we're relieved that there is talent amongst the youngsters and some of them might just make it.

It is, that’s my point. We shouldn’t be playing youngsters out of necessity, we should be playing them when they’re ready. We’ve got too thin a squad to even cope with a couple of injuries. You won’t have success at this level with such a lack of depth. My worry is that won’t change in the summer as it appears to be our strategy going forward. I really think we need an investment deal to go through and fast or we will be in trouble. Imagine where we’d be if some of the young players hadn’t managed to step up. There was no guarantee that they would have done. It feels like a very dangerous strategy.

[Srg]

9 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

It is, that’s my point. We shouldn’t be playing youngsters out of necessity, we should be playing them when they’re ready. We’ve got too thin a squad to even cope with a couple of injuries. You won’t have success at this level with such a lack of depth. My worry is that won’t change in the summer as it appears to be our strategy going forward. I really think we need an investment deal to go through and fast or we will be in trouble. Imagine where we’d be if some of the young players hadn’t managed to step up. There was no guarantee that they would have done. It feels like a very dangerous strategy.

We shouldn’t be playing them out or necessity, you’re right. Equally though, they do need to play some time and Cocu got slaughtered for the cup game. I’d heavily argue that the experience there lead to the emergence of a few of them in the second half of this season. Believe Cocu himself has said he doesn’t regret it at all. 

We’ll be fine. Just need 2 or 3 to compliment what we have. A goalkeeper, a wide player and a striker. Maybe another centre back other than Te Wierik. Some of them can be loans. 

I’m much more willing to suffer some iffy performances with the greater goal ahead of our own academy players becoming something. Much easier to get behind and forgive some misgivings than it is watching the same tried and tested retreads fail again. 

[TomBustler1884]

Anyone expecting consistency from us at the moment is dreaming.

We have too many experienced players out through injury or suspension.

We are giving academy players games, partly out of necessity, partly to see how they cope.

We all need to accept that we are in a position where we will have a couple of average games, then a great one, then two poor ones, that's where we're at.

We have some obvious holes in the squad - gk, wide players that we need signings at. CB and CF will be addressed through Dutch Mike, Bielik, Wisdom, Waghorn and Marriott returning.

It's definitely no time for Rams fans to demand consistency or instant impact. This will be a long process and patience is the key word.

[RoyMac5]

33 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

I really think we need an investment deal to go through and fast or we will be in trouble. 

And if we get the wrong deal through, then we'll REALLY be in trouble!

[IslandExile]

44 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

It feels like a very dangerous strategy.

Again, I think it's borne out of necessity. Fair play to Mel, he has funded the club to this point but that pot is apparently drying up.

We'll see if we get investment, or if there are any good deals to be had and where the summer takes us.

[Millenniumram]

29 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

And if we get the wrong deal through, then we'll REALLY be in trouble!

Absolutely, we just have to hope the EFL fit and proper test helps us out... oh, wait.

[Millenniumram]

17 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Again, I think it's borne out of necessity. Fair play to Mel, he has funded the club to this point but that pot is apparently drying up.

We'll see if we get investment, or if there are any good deals to be had and where the summer takes us.

Again I agree that it is, but I’m not convinced it’s gonna work. Not to such extremes anyway. Hopefully we can get some investment in which allows us to buy some quality established players to supplement the best of our academy talent. There’s got to be that balance for success imo.

[IslandExile]

2 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

Again I agree that it is, but I’m not convinced it’s gonna work. Not to such extremes anyway. Hopefully we can get some investment in which allows us to buy some quality established players to supplement the best of our academy talent. There’s got to be that balance for success imo.

My opinion too.

But RoyMac5 is right to caution about the investors. We've gone down the wrong path before.

Of course, we're yet to see the full impact of the lockdown on club finances.... And as for what the EFL may do....

[YorkshireRam]

11 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Controversial opinion: Is seeing loads of youth players on the pitch while we’re losing a football match that great? I can’t say I was jumping for joy seeing them all out there getting torn to shreds by West Brom. It’s impressive to an extent to have such a young team yes, but I’m not convinced it means so much when they’re getting in the side purely because they’re all we have, rather than because they’re better than their senior counterparts. I’d personally much rather be watching a load of 30 year olds winning games like we did under Rowett. I appreciate it’s not as black and white as that of course, but the point is I must have a different mentality than a lot of others on here. Most seem happy to just see youngsters on the pitch - personally that doesn’t really excite me at all unless they’ve broken into the team by proving themselves better than an established senior pro. Just like Bogle did vs Wisdom, and Bird did vs Huddlestone. 

This isn’t me saying our youth are poor by the way. Not by a long stretch. I’ve seen enough of our youth teams to know the talent we have in our ranks. The question is, are all these players really good enough right now? Are they really ready? Bird definitely is. Knight probably is. Sibley might be. The rest of them, I think we’ve rushed them a bit because our squad was left too thin in the summer/January. Deliberately so imo in order to leave the door open for the youngsters to break through. It’s an admirable strategy by the club, but I’m not sure I agree with the crux of it. Especially not this stuff Mel keeps on about “targeting half the squad as academy players next season” or something like that. It all just feels to me like we’re throwing young players in the deep end not because they’re ready/have properly broken through, but instead simply by virtue of them coming through our youth system. Doing so isn’t good for us as we end up with a paper thin squad of truly championship ready players, and it isn’t good for the long term development of the young players either imo.

Personally, I think young players should have to break past the pre existing senior squad members before they get their chance - not just get it handed on a plate because we have no one else. That way they prove they’re ready for the challenge. I’ll get pelters for it but that’s the way I see things, and I’m a little concerned with the strategy we seem to have at the moment.

This misses the point, I was happy to see JHI, Brown and Buchanan make their league debuts because the game was already lost. A game v top of the league while missing key players was always going to be a challenge; if we'd have brought on Davies & Josefzoon instead I don't think it'd have increased our chances of salvaging anything from the game so why not give valuable experience to the youngsters? 

Cocu is now implementing the youth-based philosophy he proposed at the start of the season and it's fantastic to see the sheer amount of talent coming out of our academy. No-one likes seeing your team lose but making the best of it and letting the young lads gain experience is a silver lining.

[Animal is a Ram]

For Cocu to have got to this stage of the season, given everything that's happened off the pitch along the way, to be even in with a chance of the play offs, is some achievement.

I think some of the criticisms are a little unfair, especially re inflexibility. What chance does a manager have to bring across his own tactics and alternatives when preparation time has been so minimal from the start. Chances are it's going to be just as limited next season, but at least everyone else will be in the same boat in that regard.

The recruitment for next season will be key. But again, everyone will be a similar position in a post-COVID transfer market. There has to be a trust that Cocu will get it right, instead of having to rely on panicked loans. Suspect we will need to sell someone to balance the books. Bogle would be a prime candidate I think - so long as we don't simply accept a Tesco meal deal for him.

I'm positive for next season. Getting everyone available again, with a core of a new GK, 2 consistent CBs, Bird and Rooney. The rest around can be moved around as he sees fit. We've already highlighted the need for a new winger too, instead of a bunch of centre mids. There's a core of kids that are good enough. And last night will teach them a lot. Far more than 90 minutes at u23s will. Look at Bird. First league start was Villa away, 4-0. Now he's one of the first names on the team sheet.

[ramboy63]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

What!?! 

You can't be serious. What other player wouldn't have tried to free his leg?

Have another look,yes it was soft but he did make a forward movement thought caught the player on the ground and that is what the Ref saw you just got to be so careful these days red cards are getting handed out like Confetti

[Millenniumram]

15 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

My opinion too.

But RoyMac5 is right to caution about the investors. We've gone down the wrong path before.

Of course, we're yet to see the full impact of the lockdown on club finances.... And as for what the EFL may do....

Indeed, though I’m pretty sure Mel will be very careful who we go into business with. It sounds like he’ll be staying at the club whichever way up, so hopefully that will give us extra security.

[Millenniumram]

20 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

This misses the point, I was happy to see JHI, Brown and Buchanan make their league debuts because the game was already lost. A game v top of the league while missing key players was always going to be a challenge; if we'd have brought on Davies & Josefzoon instead I don't think it'd have increased our chances of salvaging anything from the game so why not give valuable experience to the youngsters? 

Cocu is now implementing the youth-based philosophy he proposed at the start of the season and it's fantastic to see the sheer amount of talent coming out of our academy. No-one likes seeing your team lose but making the best of it and letting the young lads gain experience is a silver lining.

I don’t think I said anywhere that I disagree with Cocu’s decision to sub them all on - in fact I think it was exactly the right thing to do, in order to send out a message to the senior players who aren’t performing. My point is I’m not convinced it’s something to be that proud and positive about. These young players are playing because we have a piss weak paper thin squad, not because they’re necessarily any good (though some are of course). Any team in the world can leave themselves with barely any quality senior players and end up playing loads of young lads - that doesn’t necessarily mean that their academy is any good.

FWIW I’m on board with a youth based philosophy given our academy’s excellent record. But there has to be a balance to it. We need to have enough quality in the senior ranks so that only youngsters who are truly ready break into the team. Hopefully that will be more the case next season.

[RoyMac5]

23 minutes ago, ramboy63 said:

Have another look,yes it was soft but he did make a forward movement thought caught the player on the ground and that is what the Ref saw you just got to be so careful these days red cards are getting handed out like Confetti

He may indeed have moved his foot forward slightly, but that was after waiting to be 'freed' and is stretching reality to call it a kick.

[Ghost of Clough]

The youth getting games in a playoff push is another reason to be positive. Since the restart we've jumped up to 2nd (just 89 minutes) behind Forest for minutes given to academy graduates (including players such as Dawson, Hudddlestone, etc). We also have one of the youngest sides in the division, giving the 5th most minutes to players 21 or younger (age as of today).

[Bob The Badger]

15 hours ago, Jourdan said:

If we are sticking with Cocu and his project, I think we are two seasons away from genuinely competing for promotion.

We're genuinely challenging right now.

3 points back with 4 games to go and the team we're looking to catch to play is the very definition of genuinely challenging for the playoffs - and then it's game on.

I see no way this team doesn't improve next season, so I see no way we don't genuinely challenge again.

We've been the form team since Christmas after a horrendous pre-season and start to the season and you even use an *if* as to sticking with Cocu.

I honestly don't know how much better the guy could have done under the circumstances. 

I'm pretty sure you'd have been calling for Cloughie's head after the first season because he did a lot poorer than Cocu.

[Wolfie20]

8 hours ago, IslandExile said:

With Waghorn and Lawrence suspended, Holmes carrying an injury and Marriott out, what could he have done differently tonight?

Which manager do you have in mind that could be getting better results whilst still producing entertaining football with the resources available?

Agreed. We're a goal down with half an hour to go so either Cocu perseveres with those already on the pitch (with no sign of an equaliser in sight) or introduce forward subs who might just grab a goal? You could argue that he could have used Jozefzoon but how many more chances do we give him?

The match against one of the favourites for automatic promotion was probably not the ideal situation to introduce young players but there weren't too many other options on the evening. It's the weakest bench all season in one of the most difficult games and a large proportion of the blame for that lies with Waghorn, Lawrence and the scumbags who attacked Wiz.

How those youngsters who came on react in the next few months will be interesting and a good indication of their longer-term potential. We all saw how Max Bird struggled away to Villa last season and you could be forgiven for thinking he might be scarred by the experience. He wasn't, he was left out until Cocu felt he was ready physically and mentally to go again and now look at him.

We need to get this horrible nightmare of a season out of the way and go again, with a nucleus of 8-10 of the current more senior players, 3 or 4 quality additions who can be easily integrated into the system(s) Cocu wants to play, plus anything between 4 and 6 of the young lads, some of whom have already demonstrated this season that they are more than capable of claiming a regular starting place.