Let’s be positive.

[Wolfie20]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes and all three looked lost tonight. I'm worried that Bird will end up being too sideways/negative and Knight not knowing where he is, Sibley should be okay, but will he be more, hopefully.

Think you can put Fozzy, Martin and Rooney down as today failing to provide the guidance these young ones need - I don't think we should under-estimate the effect so many games in a short period of time is having on some of the older players.

[Barney1991]

9 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes and all three looked lost tonight. I'm worried that Bird will end up being too sideways/negative and Knight not knowing where he is, Sibley should be okay, but will he be more, hopefully.

Thatis my worry with bird aswell  the negative pass 9 times out of 10 and slowing the play down  when he's more positive he is brilliant. Trying to rely on rooneyntoo much in recent games aswell. Shinnie is a funny one who divides opinion im not too sure about him tbh 

[europia]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

But the second sentence is why it's difficult to be happy with the previous one. We needed a better bench, well we needed better on the pitch! Not sure how many of the youngsters will make it realistically, I mean c'mon even Sibley, Knight and Bird didn't shine tonight.

Yes agreed, we have to be realistic. We are currently selecting the players who are available for selection. Not necessarily a case that senior players are being forced out by the performances academy players.

[MACKWORTHRAM]

I think there's loads of reasons to be positive. This season has been an absolute disaster from start to finish and the sooner it's over and done with the better. The fact we're even within touching distance of the play offs is a testament to the job Cocu has done.

Today was always going to be a pretty thankless task. Going to the top of the league without half your squad and 2 top scorers would be pretty difficult for any team in this league.

Just looking at that team today and what we could potentially line up with at the start of next season and it's chalk and cheese.

Without any signings we've got Lawrence, Waghorn, Bielik, Holmes, Marriott, Wisdom and Te Weirik in the team. (Always going to be a big ask for Holmes after not playing for so long to come back and play games in quick succession which I doubt he would have without the injuries. 

I think we'll end up selling someone in the summer to allow us to strengthen. I would expect it to be Bogle. Established young English right back that we should be able to get a good fee for. Sibley and Bird are far too early in their careers to consider selling now. 

A new goalkeeper is absolutely paramount. It has to be top of the list. Not sure how we've ended up with 2 keepers this bad.

Think we'll need a right back if Bogle goes go. 

Left back is interesting. I don't want to be harsh on Forsyth cos he's been such a good servant to this football club. But his days at this level look numbered to me. Think those knee injuries have really not helped. But he's starting to look more and more out of his depth. Cocu doesn't seem to fancy Lowe really? I'm still not sure about him. But he's young and can improve. I mean he sent Buchanan on today instead. 

I'd be trying to get Clarke back. He's getting better and better. If not. He'll need replacing.

Midfield I think we're ok. But slightly missing a spark for me. Rooney, Bielik, Shinnie are all deep lying. And Sibley will be in and out of games, Holmes the same. It's not imperative. But could be the difference. 

We've needed a good winger for about 6 years. Every summer we all say we need a winger. But we don't seem to get one. We have to this summer. 

And a striker. Even if Martin stays we need a striker. I would hope Marriott can stay fit. I watched an interview with him the other day and it made me see him in a whole new light. You can see how much it hurts him being out. Just hope he can get a pre season behind him.

New GK

Wisdom/New RB, Te Weirik, Wisdom/Bielik/New CB, Lowe/New LB,

Bird/Bielik/Rooney/Shinnie

          Holmes/Sibley/Lawrence

Waghorn Marriott/New Striker New Winger

5 signings there which would make a difference and give us depth. Would probably be funded by the sale of Bogle.

Even without the signings we could still put a very strong line up out.

I think next season could be really special. 

 

[Jimbo Ram]

44 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Except they have to step up if we want to rely on them, and all three looked fairly ordinary tonight. Yes I want to see our young players come though, but I do not want to see our young players come through because they are young! It's difficult to say, but what does Cocu see in Whittaker? I'm not trying to be mean I just wonder where he's going with him, nothing much but a bit of speed. Shouldn't more of these youngsters be out getting more 'real' game time?

Got to agree. Think it is a bit too soon for Whittaker. Needs a loan in a lower division next season for me....

[BramcoteRam84]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

If we are sticking with Cocu and his project, I think we are two seasons away from genuinely competing for promotion.

Firstly, I don't think the money is there for us to add to the squad sufficiently. Secondly, these young players need time. Thirdly, I think the pandemic situation is working against us. We needed a normal summer to really put plans in place, yet it will be another summer of a disjointed and uncertain nature.

When you consider that we need a goalkeeper, a centre back, a winger or two, and long term replacements for Rooney and Martin, I don't think it makes sense to expect too much next season unless we can work some magic in the transfer market in the same way other clubs do.

Look at that Pereira lad at WBA - head and shoulders above anything we have got even when everyone is fit. That's the kind of find we need from our recruitment team.

I’m hopeful we can compete sooner but I agree with pretty much everything you say here. The pandemic will have an impact we have to be realistic.

Are you a convert to the Cocu project?

[Jourdan]

32 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

I’m hopeful we can compete sooner but I agree with pretty much everything you say here. The pandemic will have an impact we have to be realistic.

Are you a convert to the Cocu project?

Cocu isn't going anywhere. We know that we have to get behind him and what he's trying to do. I think he deserves a lot of credit for turning this season around.

Of course, I want him to succeed. Do I think he has what it takes to take us up a gear? I'm not convinced. His tactics, his team selections, his decision making too often misses the mark for me. A lot of times where you would expect a manager of his calibre to make a difference, he seems to be lacking.

If I'm honest, he's a little too conservative and a little inflexible for me. Sometimes I think the dedication to the approach can be our undoing. Possession football can be fantastic if you have the zip, verve and vision to match, but it can also be excruciating to watch.

We have seen some good signs this season. In 7-8 games, we have looked unplayable. I imagine it'll be more effective when Cocu has more of his own players and the young players get to grips with the league.

I suspect we'll end up in the play-offs next season if we have a good summer. Do I see us getting promoted? Not unless there are some inspired changes.

Teams are already figuring out how to nullify us, so I just feel it's going to be more challenging to continue on this trajectory than people imagine. We either need an injection of some real difference-making quality on the pitch, or some intervention from the manager when it comes to tactics and decision making.

We all know that we haven't got the finances to pour in the extra quality like WBA or Fulham have been able to do. So maybe Cocu has to step it up from the sidelines, so we can become more of a puzzle for the opposition.

[plymouthram]

What are the moaners expecting. We played a team today with strength in depth who also have only lost 6 games all season, nearest to that is Leeds and they have lost 9. We had no, Lawrence, Waghorn, Marriott, Wisdom or Beilik. We've lost Huddlestone, Keogh and Bennett during this season. Mel wants the youngsters in the 1st team squad and Cocu is the man to deliver. This Pandemic will have lots of clubs tightening their belts, which means there will be good players released for other clubs to pick up. Lets hope our scouts, manager and coaches can pick out a cast off and turn him into a better player in a Rams shirt. Yes I agree, we need a Keeper, Centrehalf, Striker and a winger. Lets hope we get them, young or old but with enough talent to step in and make the squad stronger.

[Millenniumram]

Controversial opinion: Is seeing loads of youth players on the pitch while we’re losing a football match that great? I can’t say I was jumping for joy seeing them all out there getting torn to shreds by West Brom. It’s impressive to an extent to have such a young team yes, but I’m not convinced it means so much when they’re getting in the side purely because they’re all we have, rather than because they’re better than their senior counterparts. I’d personally much rather be watching a load of 30 year olds winning games like we did under Rowett. I appreciate it’s not as black and white as that of course, but the point is I must have a different mentality than a lot of others on here. Most seem happy to just see youngsters on the pitch - personally that doesn’t really excite me at all unless they’ve broken into the team by proving themselves better than an established senior pro. Just like Bogle did vs Wisdom, and Bird did vs Huddlestone. 

This isn’t me saying our youth are poor by the way. Not by a long stretch. I’ve seen enough of our youth teams to know the talent we have in our ranks. The question is, are all these players really good enough right now? Are they really ready? Bird definitely is. Knight probably is. Sibley might be. The rest of them, I think we’ve rushed them a bit because our squad was left too thin in the summer/January. Deliberately so imo in order to leave the door open for the youngsters to break through. It’s an admirable strategy by the club, but I’m not sure I agree with the crux of it. Especially not this stuff Mel keeps on about “targeting half the squad as academy players next season” or something like that. It all just feels to me like we’re throwing young players in the deep end not because they’re ready/have properly broken through, but instead simply by virtue of them coming through our youth system. Doing so isn’t good for us as we end up with a paper thin squad of truly championship ready players, and it isn’t good for the long term development of the young players either imo.

Personally, I think young players should have to break past the pre existing senior squad members before they get their chance - not just get it handed on a plate because we have no one else. That way they prove they’re ready for the challenge. I’ll get pelters for it but that’s the way I see things, and I’m a little concerned with the strategy we seem to have at the moment.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

35 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

Controversial opinion: Is seeing loads of youth players on the pitch while we’re losing a football match that great? I can’t say I was jumping for joy seeing them all out there getting torn to shreds by West Brom. It’s impressive to an extent to have such a young team yes, but I’m not convinced it means so much when they’re getting in the side purely because they’re all we have, rather than because they’re better than their senior counterparts. I’d personally much rather be watching a load of 30 year olds winning games like we did under Rowett. I appreciate it’s not as black and white as that of course, but the point is I must have a different mentality than a lot of others on here. Most seem happy to just see youngsters on the pitch - personally that doesn’t really excite me at all unless they’ve broken into the team by proving themselves better than an established senior pro. Just like Bogle did vs Wisdom, and Bird did vs Huddlestone. 

This isn’t me saying our youth are poor by the way. Not by a long stretch. I’ve seen enough of our youth teams to know the talent we have in our ranks. The question is, are all these players really good enough right now? Are they really ready? Bird definitely is. Knight probably is. Sibley might be. The rest of them, I think we’ve rushed them a bit because our squad was left too thin in the summer/January. Deliberately so imo in order to leave the door open for the youngsters to break through. It’s an admirable strategy by the club, but I’m not sure I agree with the crux of it. Especially not this stuff Mel keeps on about “targeting half the squad as academy players next season” or something like that. It all just feels to me like we’re throwing young players in the deep end not because they’re ready/have properly broken through, but instead simply by virtue of them coming through our youth system. Doing so isn’t good for us as we end up with a paper thin squad of truly championship ready players, and it isn’t good for the long term development of the young players either imo.

Personally, I think young players should have to break past the pre existing senior squad members before they get their chance - not just get it handed on a plate because we have no one else. That way they prove they’re ready for the challenge. I’ll get pelters for it but that’s the way I see things, and I’m a little concerned with the strategy we seem to have at the moment.

You shouldn't get pelters for stating what should be obvious. I recall a few years back a Forest supporting mate barking on about there academy and how great there kids were. Not so, They were just in the same position playing them out of necessity, rather than choice the occasional Burke or Lacelles excepted.  Think it was Reg Harrison who summed it up when asked how Derby went from cup winners and league runners up to division 3 in a few years -we tried to make do and mend, in football you can never make do and mend.  I would hope that the club would already know this. If they get 3 or 4 regular first teamers from a couple of academy years there doing well.

 

[Jourdan]

I have to agree. You have to bring the young players into a balanced and well-functioning team where they can slot in and be allowed to flourish.

It was a thankless task for Buchanan, Whittaker, Brown and Hector-Ingram throwing them in with abandon.

Let’s stick with Bird in midfield and Bogle at right back, and let the rest continue their development.

Sibley and Knight would make the 18 but the rest need to be eased in and probably need loan moves.

[IslandExile]

6 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Do you mean a manager able to get results (without the style) or a manager able to develop a successful & also attractive style?

If its the latter, these things always take time irrespective of manager. Pragmatic results based football is achievable quite quickly - the better the style, the harder it is to perfect. Look how long it took Klopp & Guardiola to get it right even allowing for the multi millions they could throw at players.

Not just Jourdan but for some, like all the Rowett and Wee Billy fans and Warnock proponents, it's all about the results.

Maybe they prefer the statistics rather than being entertained by the football. They'd love a "boring 1-0 to the Arsenal" type team.

Yes, we all want the team to win and we all want to be back in the top flight, sheesh god yes, but surely we want the football we watch to be entertaining along the way.

[IslandExile]

3 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Controversial opinion: Is seeing loads of youth players on the pitch while we’re losing a football match that great? I can’t say I was jumping for joy seeing them all out there getting torn to shreds by West Brom. It’s impressive to an extent to have such a young team yes, but I’m not convinced it means so much when they’re getting in the side purely because they’re all we have, rather than because they’re better than their senior counterparts. I’d personally much rather be watching a load of 30 year olds winning games like we did under Rowett. I appreciate it’s not as black and white as that of course, but the point is I must have a different mentality than a lot of others on here. Most seem happy to just see youngsters on the pitch - personally that doesn’t really excite me at all unless they’ve broken into the team by proving themselves better than an established senior pro. Just like Bogle did vs Wisdom, and Bird did vs Huddlestone. 

This isn’t me saying our youth are poor by the way. Not by a long stretch. I’ve seen enough of our youth teams to know the talent we have in our ranks. The question is, are all these players really good enough right now? Are they really ready? Bird definitely is. Knight probably is. Sibley might be. The rest of them, I think we’ve rushed them a bit because our squad was left too thin in the summer/January. Deliberately so imo in order to leave the door open for the youngsters to break through. It’s an admirable strategy by the club, but I’m not sure I agree with the crux of it. Especially not this stuff Mel keeps on about “targeting half the squad as academy players next season” or something like that. It all just feels to me like we’re throwing young players in the deep end not because they’re ready/have properly broken through, but instead simply by virtue of them coming through our youth system. Doing so isn’t good for us as we end up with a paper thin squad of truly championship ready players, and it isn’t good for the long term development of the young players either imo.

Personally, I think young players should have to break past the pre existing senior squad members before they get their chance - not just get it handed on a plate because we have no one else. That way they prove they’re ready for the challenge. I’ll get pelters for it but that’s the way I see things, and I’m a little concerned with the strategy we seem to have at the moment.

Though I'm sure Mel wants to see fruition from his funding of the academy, isn't part of the reason for playing so many youngsters out of necessity?

Having chopped out a lot of the deadwood, we no longer have so many senior players in the squad. Less so when two of the more creative players are suspended, another two injured.

It appears we do not have the funds to buy in more players. So, as much as anything, we're relieved that there is talent amongst the youngsters and some of them might just make it.

[Jourdan]

34 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Not just Jourdan but for some, like all the Rowett and Wee Billy fans and Warnock proponents, it's all about the results.

Maybe they prefer the statistics rather than being entertained by the football. They'd love a "boring 1-0 to the Arsenal" type team.

Yes, we all want the team to win and we all want to be back in the top flight, sheesh god yes, but surely we want the football we watch to be entertaining along the way.

Of course, we want to be entertained.

But if you’ve watched the last 3 games, how much of it has been entertaining as a Derby fan?

55 minutes out of 270 minutes at a push.

Just because I would prefer a manager who won’t take 3+ years to get us out of the division doesn’t necessarily mean I want a pragmatic manager by design.

Could we adapt and adjust our style at times to make ourselves more difficult to play against and to yield more results? Yes. Does that mean we have to play in a pragmatic way? No.

Read Alpha’s post on the match thread. It echoes my thoughts perfectly. Cocu could be a great success for us but I’d like to see more flexibility, more tactical awareness, more bravery from him. His instincts are very much safety first. All too often we cower any time we play strong opposition.

Cocu has been getting a lot of praise in recent months and rightly so.

But if you have watched the last two games in particular, it is very difficult not to feel disheartened and not to feel troubled by the scale of the task at hand.

[IslandExile]

9 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Of course, we want to be entertained.

But if you’ve watched the last 3 games, how much of it has been entertaining as a Derby fan?

55 minutes out of 270 minutes at a push.

Just because I would prefer a manager who won’t take 3+ years to get us out of the division doesn’t necessarily mean I want a pragmatic manager by design.

Could we adapt and adjust our style at times to make ourselves more difficult to play against and to yield more results? Yes. Does that mean we have to play in a pragmatic way? No.

Read Alpha’s post on the match thread. It echoes my thoughts perfectly. Cocu could be a great success for us but I’d like to see more flexibility, more tactical awareness, more bravery from him. His instincts are very much safety first. All too often we cower any time we play strong opposition.

Cocu has been getting a lot of praise in recent months and rightly so.

But if you have watched the last two games in particular, it is very difficult not to feel disheartened and not to feel troubled by the scale of the task at hand.

With Waghorn and Lawrence suspended, Holmes carrying an injury and Marriott out, what could he have done differently tonight?

Which manager do you have in mind that could be getting better results whilst still producing entertaining football with the resources available?

[Jourdan]

11 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

With Waghorn and Lawrence suspended, Holmes carrying an injury and Marriott out, what could he have done differently tonight?

Which manager do you have in mind that could be getting better results whilst still producing entertaining football with the resources available?

It’s not really about personnel. it’s obvious that we are suffering with injuries and suspensions. Man for man, WBA were always going to be better in that respect.

But you can bridge such a gap with tactics and in-game management.

Sorry, I am just frustrated having watched 180 minutes of us not laying a glove on the opposition. Not winning is not the issue. We all expected this run to be tough. The manner of the last two performances are very dispiriting.

Bielsa v2.0? It’s an impossible question to answer. One, the job is not available. Two, we don’t know who is available and willing to come to Derby County. Three, Mel is happy with Cocu which is all that counts at this point.

I have no problem with Cocu staying. But I just hope he is learning from games like the last two and he starts to adapt and adjust and show some evolution, not just in the team’s performances but his management style.

[IslandExile]

4 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

It’s not really about personnel. it’s obvious that we are suffering with injuries and suspensions. Man for man, WBA were always going to be better in that respect.

But you can bridge such a gap with tactics and in-game management.

Sorry, I am just frustrated having watched 180 minutes of us not laying a glove on the opposition. Not winning is not the issue. We all expected this run to be tough. The manner of the last two performances are very dispiriting.

Bielsa v2.0? It’s an impossible question to answer. One, the job is not available. Two, we don’t know who is available and willing to come to Derby County. Three, Mel is happy with Cocu which is all that counts at this point.

I have no problem with Cocu staying. But I just hope he is learning from games like the last two and he starts to adapt and adjust and show some evolution, not just in the team’s performances but his management style.

I didn't enjoy the last two games at all. However, they came after a run of really positive performances that brought lots of praise for Cocu... with even some of it from you.

I don't know what went wrong against Forest but I think the two suspensions and Holmes' injury made tonight especially difficult.

I'm not sure what alternative tactics were possible tonight given the players available.

[LeedsCityRam]

3 hours ago, IslandExile said:

Not just Jourdan but for some, like all the Rowett and Wee Billy fans and Warnock proponents, it's all about the results.

Maybe they prefer the statistics rather than being entertained by the football. They'd love a "boring 1-0 to the Arsenal" type team.

Yes, we all want the team to win and we all want to be back in the top flight, sheesh god yes, but surely we want the football we watch to be entertaining along the way.

Agree. If the Rowett reign & Pearson experiment taught us anything, its that pragmatic football will never be accepted by the majority at Derby. Stoke & Leicester are synonymous with that kind of style, our fans expect different.

I think some of Cocu's critics seem to have unrealistically high expectations. We're struggling with injuries/suspensions, have been on a great run but are now playing the very best in the division...no surprise we're coming short but then there's generic waffle about him needing to change his tactical flexibility, as if it were purely the strategy that cost us yesterday. Ignoring the poor technique and quality in the final 3rd, lack of creativity & defensive lapses which are uncontrollable as a manager.

Reality is we're a top 10 team with everyone fit, same as we've been for last 5 years. The late surge into 6th last two seasons masked some very ordinary results & considerable supporter discontent before that. Only way to improve on that is to keep practising/playing until we get better at this style.

[WamRam]

I think what we're desperately missing at the moment is balance on the wings. Playing 2 central midfielders out wide just isn't going to get you anywhere in this league.

Obviously Lawrence has been suspended but, still only having 1 winger at the club just isn't enough (I'll leave zoon out because he clearly isn't fancied.)

I remember back to Mac 1 - we had proper wingers. Russell, Ward, Dawkins and Ibe. Players who could run at a full back and beat him inside and outside. 

No disrespect but that just isn't the type of player Holmes. Knight or even Whitaker are..

[BramcoteRam84]

2 hours ago, Jourdan said:

It’s not really about personnel. it’s obvious that we are suffering with injuries and suspensions. Man for man, WBA were always going to be better in that respect.

But you can bridge such a gap with tactics and in-game management.

Sorry, I am just frustrated having watched 180 minutes of us not laying a glove on the opposition. Not winning is not the issue. We all expected this run to be tough. The manner of the last two performances are very dispiriting.

Bielsa v2.0? It’s an impossible question to answer. One, the job is not available. Two, we don’t know who is available and willing to come to Derby County. Three, Mel is happy with Cocu which is all that counts at this point.

I have no problem with Cocu staying. But I just hope he is learning from games like the last two and he starts to adapt and adjust and show some evolution, not just in the team’s performances but his management style.

It is about having different options and we didn’t have any. Subs were like for like, Lawrence Waghorn Marriott would have all offered something different when it is isn’t working and they weren’t available. It’s a legacy of the virtually non existent recruitment from last year. Always said Cocu needs at least this summer to get the team he wants.

I get why some people want it now, but we don’t have cash to throw around, so we have to build something and to build something sustainable takes time. It took Clough 5 years and he was binned before he saw it through as he probably couldn’t take the team to the level McClaren did. For 2 seasons we were arguably one of the best teams in the league and for 75% of the 14/15 season we were the best team before the collapse when ultimately our squad was too thin in key areas. That team was built on a shoe string over time.

Its clear we have to go that way again, the difference is I think we have a manager who has already won leagues doing it this way and our crop of youngsters is significantly better than was Nigel had at his disposal.

I think overall Cocu has met expectations this season and missing a few key players has highlighted our deficiencies against the top teams. It won’t take much, some shrewd recruitment, players getting fit and another preseason and we’ll be in a good place. We dominate games, a bit more cutting edge and we will be a difficult prospect for anyone in the league