Let’s be positive.

[Wolfie20]

2 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Absolutely, we just have to hope the EFL fit and proper test helps us out... oh, wait.

Have you seen the EFL statement on the new Wigan owners? Pathetic excuses for the 'fit and proper' process not being fully implemented......foreign owners, difficult to obtain accurate information blah, blah, blah. Then they have the nerve to complain about the EFL not being shown respect!

Parry and his cronies at the EFL are unbelievable...respect is earned by the action you take.

[Wolfie20]

1 hour ago, ramboy63 said:

Have another look,yes it was soft but he did make a forward movement thought caught the player on the ground and that is what the Ref saw you just got to be so careful these days red cards are getting handed out like Confetti

Minor point but I don't think the ref saw it  - far too incompetent. It looked to be the linesman on the far side and I reckon his view wouldn't have been great since Sibley was facing away from him.

[YorkshireRam]

1 hour ago, Millenniumram said:

I don’t think I said anywhere that I disagree with Cocu’s decision to sub them all on - in fact I think it was exactly the right thing to do, in order to send out a message to the senior players who aren’t performing. My point is I’m not convinced it’s something to be that proud and positive about. These young players are playing because we have a piss weak paper thin squad, not because they’re necessarily any good (though some are of course). Any team in the world can leave themselves with barely any quality senior players and end up playing loads of young lads - that doesn’t necessarily mean that their academy is any good.

FWIW I’m on board with a youth based philosophy given our academy’s excellent record. But there has to be a balance to it. We need to have enough quality in the senior ranks so that only youngsters who are truly ready break into the team. Hopefully that will be more the case next season.

You don't think having the best academy in the country and trying to transition as many of the youngsters into the first team is ''positive''? 

I don't really understand your point, we obviously don't have the spending power of other clubs at this level given the FFP circumstances and so blooding up and coming talent is our best bet at enhancing squad quality and depth; since this can't be bought, it needs to be grown. This isn't an instant process, however. As for playing young lads not being a reflection on the quality of the academy, perhaps not, but ours is excellent given it won the youth PL last season... so our youngsters are ''good''.

I don't think it was a message to the senior players, I think it was a deliberate move to give 3 new academy graduates valuable experience; and it's fine to see that as a positive thing.

[Duracell]

Without wishing to take a side, I can't work out why we're debating this as if we had the 9 academy players out there by design, and not because we have 10932928 first team players suspended, injured or running their contract down.

But, taking a side, I don't see the "yippee" moment of having those players in and of itself during a disappointing defeat, but I do see it as an indicator that we're heading in the right direction.

Rowett would have sooner thrown the game than trust the kids.

[Millenniumram]

5 hours ago, YorkshireRam said:

You don't think having the best academy in the country and trying to transition as many of the youngsters into the first team is ''positive''? 

I don't really understand your point, we obviously don't have the spending power of other clubs at this level given the FFP circumstances and so blooding up and coming talent is our best bet at enhancing squad quality and depth; since this can't be bought, it needs to be grown. This isn't an instant process, however. As for playing young lads not being a reflection on the quality of the academy, perhaps not, but ours is excellent given it won the youth PL last season... so our youngsters are ''good''.

I don't think it was a message to the senior players, I think it was a deliberate move to give 3 new academy graduates valuable experience; and it's fine to see that as a positive thing.

My point is simple really - it’s a very positive thing to have as good an academy as we do, but it’s not a positive thing to be throwing loads of youngsters on the pitch out of necessity, many of whom aren’t ready. In my view anyway. As I say I don’t expect many to agree with me, as most on here seem to have far greater faith in our strategy than I do. Fair enough, but I’m just looking at it from another angle. I just can’t see how we can get where we want to be without top quality senior players around the younger academy lads. And that will require spending some money, though if you recruit properly, maybe not as much as many might think. 

The fact we had so many young players out there yesterday just shows how far away we are from having a good enough/ deep enough squad to be real contenders imo. That’s why I see it as a negative, not a positive as the OP suggests.

[bimmerman]

Positives--

*we have a club to support

*Wayne Rooney is a ram

*after a ridiculous year off field and global pandemic wise, we're somehow in the top half still

*Wayne Rooney is a ram

*decent crop of youngsters coming through

*Wayne Rooney is a ram 

*Jamie Paterson has long gone

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

5 hours ago, YorkshireRam said:

You don't think having the best academy in the country and trying to transition as many of the youngsters into the first team is ''positive''? 

I don't really understand your point, we obviously don't have the spending power of other clubs at this level given the FFP circumstances and so blooding up and coming talent is our best bet at enhancing squad quality and depth; since this can't be bought, it needs to be grown. This isn't an instant process, however. As for playing young lads not being a reflection on the quality of the academy, perhaps not, but ours is excellent given it won the youth PL last season... so our youngsters are ''good''.

I don't think it was a message to the senior players, I think it was a deliberate move to give 3 new academy graduates valuable experience; and it's fine to see that as a positive thing.

We have some good youngsters, but in reality it isn't the best in the country. Liverpool, Chelsea, Man city and to some degree Arsenal  send out youngsters at large loan cost every season we wouldn't be beating those four without that . We had three in our first team last season . It doesn't have to be the best as were not challenging for european places.

Past history tells me that 3 or 4 players will get regular starting/bench positions. 2 might be good enough to play football at a higher level.We cannot expect to push for promotion out the league with 8 or 9, 18-19 year old's in the squad week in week out.

George Burley needed 500k to blood three youngsters alongside experienced and good quality players, some from foreign leagues.  That's where we need to go to remain competitive.

[jono]

23 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Two poor performances against good sides, but, let's not forget, from the academy, Bogle, Sibley and Bird are confirmed championship players with futures possibly higher, Lowe gradually looking a first team squad player proper, ditto Knight - that's six worthwhile academy players to ge in and around the team.

Add to that, trialist, Whittaker, brown and Buchanan who still looked u23 players tonight - but remember how bird looked away at villa last season, they'll grow.

Dutch center half, Bielik to come back, Wisdom to come back.

Starting a season already versed in the style rather than learning it.

I think we'll be ok next season. I didn't really believe we were good enough for play offs this season.

Not a lot to do. Bit more fire power upfront. Flo Jo to get right, or a decent winger instead .. then an above average goalie and we can win the league. Yesterday’s performance lacked a killer but we played proper football worth watching with some precision against a side who will almost certainly go up. .. I am not down one bit. 

[YorkshireRam]

1 hour ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

We have some good youngsters, but in reality it isn't the best in the country. Liverpool, Chelsea, Man city and to some degree Arsenal  send out youngsters at large loan cost every season we wouldn't be beating those four without that . We had three in our first team last season . It doesn't have to be the best as were not challenging for european places.

Past history tells me that 3 or 4 players will get regular starting/bench positions. 2 might be good enough to play football at a higher level.We cannot expect to push for promotion out the league with 8 or 9, 18-19 year old's in the squad week in week out.

George Burley needed 500k to blood three youngsters alongside experienced and good quality players, some from foreign leagues.  That's where we need to go to remain competitive.

We're the reigning youth PL champions so we are the best. This is compounded by how many are making the step up: Bogle last season, Lowe, Bird, Knight & Sibley all looking worthy of starting XI places this season, Hector-Ingram, Buchanan & Brown hovering perhaps with next season in mind. I can't name many others teams that have as productive an academy over the last 2 seasons?

I'm not saying every player needs to be youth, it's just positive to see so much talent coming at once when we're used to 1 player breaking through every 3 or 4 seasons- a Huddlestone or Hughes. 

[YorkshireRam]

1 hour ago, Millenniumram said:

My point is simple really - it’s a very positive thing to have as good an academy as we do, but it’s not a positive thing to be throwing loads of youngsters on the pitch out of necessity, many of whom aren’t ready. In my view anyway. As I say I don’t expect many to agree with me, as most on here seem to have far greater faith in our strategy than I do. Fair enough, but I’m just looking at it from another angle. I just can’t see how we can get where we want to be without top quality senior players around the younger academy lads. And that will require spending some money, though if you recruit properly, maybe not as much as many might think. 

The fact we had so many young players out there yesterday just shows how far away we are from having a good enough/ deep enough squad to be real contenders imo. That’s why I see it as a negative, not a positive as the OP suggests.

Unfortunate injuries, bad discipline and an untimely stabbing are what have depleted our squad- all of which are temporary. I've not seen anyone proposing we only utilise youth without mentorship from more experienced players?

New GK,CB,2/3 wingers and perhaps a striker and I reckon our squad is close to promotion-worthy. Having talented youth beating out the seniors for a starting spot on merit ie. Sibley is excellent for both competition and club progression. 

So yes, it's not ideal we don't have quality wingers on the bench like WBA did, if those players that were gifted debuts yesterday go on to establish themselves as important players for us, it will have been an excellent decision by Cocu. 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 minute ago, YorkshireRam said:

We're the reigning youth PL champions so we are the best. This is compounded by how many are making the step up: Bogle last season, Lowe, Bird, Knight & Sibley all looking worthy of starting XI places this season, Hector-Ingram, Buchanan & Brown hovering perhaps with next season in mind. I can't name many others teams that have as productive an academy over the last 2 seasons?

I'm not saying every player needs to be youth, it's just positive to see so much talent coming at once when we're used to 1 player breaking through every 3 or 4 seasons- a Huddlestone or Hughes. 

I can see your fixed on this one and if that's your opinion fair enough The Burley team had Huddlestone, Camp and Tudgay . My opinion is you are very unlikely to have a team challenging to get out this league with so many youngsters . 3 or 4 is likely to be the limit who can exceed to that standard ie top six and beyond.  We are playing this amount of youngsters from necessity and that's not good now or in the future. 

[Millenniumram]

18 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

Unfortunate injuries, bad discipline and an untimely stabbing are what have depleted our squad- all of which are temporary. I've not seen anyone proposing we only utilise youth without mentorship from more experienced players?

New GK,CB,2/3 wingers and perhaps a striker and I reckon our squad is close to promotion-worthy. Having talented youth beating out the seniors for a starting spot on merit ie. Sibley is excellent for both competition and club progression. 

So yes, it's not ideal we don't have quality wingers on the bench like WBA did, if those players that were gifted debuts yesterday go on to establish themselves as important players for us, it will have been an excellent decision by Cocu. 

I keep seeing this excuse season after season, how much longer are we going to cling onto it? All teams have injuries and suspensions, they’re part and parcel of the game - we have to be able to cope with them. I’ll give you the Wisdom one as that was unusual circumstances, but it’s our lack of attacking depth that’s more my concern. From your list of players it seems you agree with me, so not quite sure what you’re arguing ?

[Van der MoodHoover]

3 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

My point is simple really - it’s a very positive thing to have as good an academy as we do, but it’s not a positive thing to be throwing loads of youngsters on the pitch out of necessity, many of whom aren’t ready. In my view anyway. As I say I don’t expect many to agree with me, as most on here seem to have far greater faith in our strategy than I do. Fair enough, but I’m just looking at it from another angle. I just can’t see how we can get where we want to be without top quality senior players around the younger academy lads. And that will require spending some money, though if you recruit properly, maybe not as much as many might think. 

The fact we had so many young players out there yesterday just shows how far away we are from having a good enough/ deep enough squad to be real contenders imo. That’s why I see it as a negative, not a positive as the OP suggests.

Is there a "right balance"?

Of youth v experience I mean.

Don't forget Mel made a conscious significant investment into the academy for it to produce players for the first team. He probably could have picked up another "senior pro" or 2 instead.

[YorkshireRam]

2 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

I keep seeing this excuse season after season, how much longer are we going to cling onto it? All teams have injuries and suspensions, they’re part and parcel of the game - we have to be able to cope with them. I’ll give you the Wisdom one as that was unusual circumstances, but it’s our lack of attacking depth that’s more my concern. From your list of players it seems you agree with me, so not quite sure what you’re arguing ?

Not many drink driving incidents or stabbings though, it's the amalgamation of the different losses rather than just injuries this season. So yes, that's the reason we've been forced to play youth but I think most agree it's a little too soon for this squad to be promoted so now is as good a time as any to start blooding future first teamers?

2 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I can see your fixed on this one and if that's your opinion fair enough The Burley team had Huddlestone, Camp and Tudgay . My opinion is you are very unlikely to have a team challenging to get out this league with so many youngsters . 3 or 4 is likely to be the limit who can exceed to that standard ie top six and beyond.  We are playing this amount of youngsters from necessity and that's not good now or in the future. 

I think Sibley, Bird & Bogle are a class above those 3 though, and that's without considering the 5/6 others. Rooney has clearly been pivotal in aiding their development and settling them into first team responsibilities so I agree there needs to be a balance. For me however, Bogle will be entering his 3rd season as first choice RB next season, Bird, Sibley & Knight their 2nd and so they should be more settled and not in the same category as JHI etc.

Te Wierik, Rooney and a new signing or 2 should be the experienced spine that allows youth to flourish even more next season. 

[Will Hughes Hair]

Not sure anyone has mentioned it but I thought Jordan Brown looked very assured in his brief league debut.  But what struck me the most was how he had physically developed.  I've seen him a few times live (most recently against Dortmund) and despite his obvious skill I thought he needed time become a man to fill out his frame in order to adapt to a man's game.

He seems to have grown three or four inches in height and bulked up (in a good way) during lockdown.  I expect him to cement a regular spot in the matchday squad over the coming months.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

1 hour ago, YorkshireRam said:

Not many drink driving incidents or stabbings though, it's the amalgamation of the different losses rather than just injuries this season. So yes, that's the reason we've been forced to play youth but I think most agree it's a little too soon for this squad to be promoted so now is as good a time as any to start blooding future first teamers?

I think Sibley, Bird & Bogle are a class above those 3 though, and that's without considering the 5/6 others. Rooney has clearly been pivotal in aiding their development and settling them into first team responsibilities so I agree there needs to be a balance. For me however, Bogle will be entering his 3rd season as first choice RB next season, Bird, Sibley & Knight their 2nd and so they should be more settled and not in the same category as JHI etc.

Te Wierik, Rooney and a new signing or 2 should be the experienced spine that allows youth to flourish even more next season. 

I've always been clear that I think Bogle is over rated. Huddlestone was a better player at 17 than the three lads noted as a class above, hence the years at Spurs. They will likely improve bar Bogle who is going backwards at a rate of knots.

 

 

[Ghost of Clough]

4 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I've always been clear that I think Bogle is over rated. Huddlestone was a better player at 17 than the three lads noted as a class above, hence the years at Spurs. They will likely improve bar Bogle who is going backwards at a rate of knots.

The usual criticism towards Bogle are his crossing and his ability to defend. These are areas Fozzy is often complimented on.

This season Bogle has made 25 accurate crosses out of 74. This is only an accuracy of 29.6%, but it's higher than Fozzy's (when playing LB). No-one at the club puts more accurate balls in per game than Bogle, with Lowe the only one with a higher accuracy, and Malone putting balls in more often (with just a 16.7% accuracy). Other parts of Bogle's attacking game are pretty good, and rarely come under criticism, so I don't think it's worth looking into those.. he's a very good attacking full back.

So let's look at his defending instead. Bogle is easily dribbled past, recording out lowest tackle success rate out of all our full backs (70.5%). However, this is only just below Forsyth's 72% and made up for by being the second highest tackler with 2 successful tackles per game. Forsyth's is 1.9, with Wisdom (1.2 @ 87.5%) and Malone (1.4 @78.3%) significantly worse. Lowe however, excels in this area with 4.1 tackles per game with a 84.3% success rate - an area highlighted by his impact vs Forest where he made more tackles in 10 minutes than any other player during the entire game. The important thing you may have noticed is that as the season's progressed, Bogle's diving in less often, and improving in this area under Cocu's coaching.

Interceptions? Lowe once again excels in this area with 1.9 per 90, Fozzy 1.7, and Bogle 1.2

"Bogle commits fouls too often". This is the biggest area for Bogle to improve on. 1.5 fouls per game compared with Lowe's 0.5, Wisdom's 0.3 and Fozzy's 0.

"Ah, but Bogle doesn't block crosses either". Well, Fozzy get's applauded for his 0.7 per 90, whereas Bogle's 0.5 get's slaughtered, and so does Lowe's 0.8. It's also worth noting Fozzy only blocks 0.5 shots and passes per 90, compared with Bogle's 0.9.

"We need Fozzy in at LB and Wisdom at RB because they're good in the air. Our other fullbacks are useless".  Well not really... There is not much separating Lowe and Fozzy here. Lowe's 1.7 headers won per 90 at 47.5% isn't too far off Fozzy's 1.9 at 46.3%. Bogle's 0.9 at 41.5% is arguably better than Wisdoms 0.7 at 51.4%

 

If Bogle cuts out those fouls, there's not much separating him and the rest defensively, and he's streets ahead of Wisdom when attacking.

[BramcoteRam84]

If you look at our transfer business, we brought in Bielik Shinnie (a Lampard signing) Hamer Clarke and Rooney. We lost Wilson Mount Tomori Johnson Carson (financial reasons) Nuge. Add to that losing Keogh, Bielik for half a season, Marriott has barely been fit all season, is it any surprise we’re turning to the youngsters?

As for the youngsters, Bogle Bird are established championship players now, as is Lowe who imo should be first choice but I don’t really class him as a youngster. I also think Knight and Sibley are not far behind. That’s 5 players who will be an important part of the 18 next season and IMO whom many teams in the division would like at their disposal. I also think Buchanan will be the next one and could challenge Lowe. Lawrence and Waggy return from suspension, add in a fit Marriott, Te Wierik, Wisdom and Bielik, it isn’t looking bad at all.
 

We all know where we need to improve and that’s wide players. Cocu himself has mentioned it several times, we couldn’t sort it last summer or in January. From the outset we said given Cocu came in late, the recruitment strategy wasn’t his he was always going to need this summer. We will probably fall short of the playoffs but given the adversity we’ve done well to get as close as we have.

To become a force, I honestly don’t think it will take much, 3 shrewd signings, a couple of wingers and CB and I think we’ll be in a really good place  with everyone else fit.
 

Getting Clarke next season is a must.

[BramcoteRam84]

Oh of course - and a goalkeeper!! How could I forget that?

[Carnero]

7 hours ago, Will Hughes Hair said:

Not sure anyone has mentioned it but I thought Jordan Brown looked very assured in his brief league debut.  But what struck me the most was how he had physically developed.  I've seen him a few times live (most recently against Dortmund) and despite his obvious skill I thought he needed time become a man to fill out his frame in order to adapt to a man's game.

He seems to have grown three or four inches in height and bulked up (in a good way) during lockdown.  I expect him to cement a regular spot in the matchday squad over the coming months.

He seems equally comfortable playing right back, left back, centre back or centre midfield so will certainly be a useful squad member.

I still wonder what his preferred position is, perhaps as the midfield anchor with Knight, Bird & Sibley in front?