swansea ram Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 2 hours ago, sunnyhill60 said: Thanks for the best antidote to a truly dire evening. (Even so, seeing Keogh's contribution just confirms how badly things have turned out this season to date) Now you made me watch that again, I'm late for work. (But it was worth it) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewbacca Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Agreed. Our scouts must be awful for us to have made the play offs 4 times out of the last 6 seasons... ...and left us with so little sell on value that we now find ourselves in a financial mess...just how much did Camara, Butterfield, Blackman, Anya contribute to the playoff campaigns after costing circa £15m plus wages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 10 minutes ago, chewbacca said: ...and left us with so little sell on value that we now find ourselves in a financial mess...just how much did Camara, Butterfield, Blackman, Anya contribute to the playoff campaigns after costing circa £15m plus wages? I was under the impression that our net spend for the 3 seasons prior to this season was pretty much zero, so there must have been some sell on value somewhere. Camara turned out to be a bad signing but cost us less than £1m net at a guess. Doubt that the recruitment team had much to do with the signings of Butterfield or Blackman. Anya has turned out to be an awful signing. On paper looked decent but we definitely paid over the odds. It's the first time that I have seen the recruitment team being blamed for leaving us in a financial mess but there again alot of the accusations being thrown around at the moment are reaching new levels of weirdness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key clubber Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 9 hours ago, Millenniumram said: Nope, Dowells played enough games at this level to tell he isn’t good enough. The recruitment team should have been able to tell he wants suited before we signed him in the first place. It was a terrible transfer indicative of our poor recruitment. I assume you weren’t happy at the Dowell loan signing then . Do you watch Sheffield United and Forest much ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester40 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 I understand the need to try and look after clubs...but surely the EFL have got to have a serious look at themselves and how they do it. After decades of - often extremely serious - financial problems we finally have a local owner with both the pocket and desire to spend his OWN money on getting us promoted. In fact he wants to spend more than he seriously can expect to get back and is happy to do that. However in an attempt to do that he has had to jiggle money around in such a way they retrospectively have decided they don't like. So they intend to try and fine us and deduct the club points and potentially relegate us and scare off the potential investors we have... Thanks very much for looking out for us... But you know... Just **** off and don't worry cos it feels like you might be err.. having... you know... the opposite effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuwtfly Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 I know it's the Daily Fail, but god I hope this is wide of the mark... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Worth bearing in mind that as a commercial property, Pride Park's value comes from its tenant as well as from the bricks and mortar. If the ground has a 50yr lease at £1m per year with a reliable tenant it's going to be worth more than an empty stadium, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Will be interesting what the statement today will read like and hopefully it might offer further insight. As it stands currently, I’m not sure how the EFL could sign everything off and then change their mind later. Also, my understanding that what they’re accusing us of (overvaluing the stadium to fiddle the books) is actually illegal, let alone a football issue. Either way, doesn’t hide from the fact I just feel a little lied to and betrayed by it all. I’ve believed Mel with everything he’s said because he’s never really given us a reason not to over the years despite missteps. So this really feels like a slap in the face for that. Was beginning to get disillusioned prior to the recent upswing, but this has certainly brought the mood down once more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Chester40 said: I understand the need to try and look after clubs...but surely the EFL have got to have a serious look at themselves and how they do it. After decades of - often extremely serious - financial problems we finally have a local owner with both the pocket and desire to spend his OWN money on getting us promoted. In fact he wants to spend more than he seriously can expect to get back and is happy to do that. However in an attempt to do that he has had to jiggle money around in such a way they retrospectively have decided they don't like. So they intend to try and fine us and deduct the club points and potentially relegate us and scare off the potential investors we have... Thanks very much for looking out for us... But you know... Just **** off and don't worry cos it feels like you might be err.. having... you know... the opposite effect. As a counter to this the EFL could point out that we have had to 'sell' our ground to finance our losses, so he has not really used his own money. The reason I say 'sell' is because at the end of the last accounting period there was no evidence that DCFC had actually received any money for the sale of the ground, this could have been received since although the news that MM is still signing personal cheques to cover the wages makes this seem unlikely to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuwtfly Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admira Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Still no announcement by club. You’d think from the official website, nothing was happening. Presumably since Sheffield Weds got charged first, they will know their punishment first too. Will ours be similar I wonder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 7 minutes ago, Srg said: Will be interesting what the statement today will read like and hopefully it might offer further insight. As it stands currently, I’m not sure how the EFL could sign everything off and then change their mind later. Also, my understanding that what they’re accusing us of (overvaluing the stadium to fiddle the books) is actually illegal, let alone a football issue. Either way, doesn’t hide from the fact I just feel a little lied to and betrayed by it all. I’ve believed Mel with everything he’s said because he’s never really given us a reason not to over the years despite missteps. So this really feels like a slap in the face for that. Was beginning to get disillusioned prior to the recent upswing, but this has certainly brought the mood down once more. The only way that I can see that this bites us on the arse is if Derby have pulled the wool over either the EFLs eyes or the fans eyes. How can they have pulled the wool over the EFLs eyes? (a) Just telling them we had the ground valued but not disclosing the method of valuation used (b) Not informing them that the ground was being sold to a connected party (although this should have no bearing on the outcome) How can they have pulled the wool over the fans eyes? (a) Leading us to believe that the EFL were fully aware of the details of the transaction, when they only signed off on the principle of it. If none of the above has happened I really dont see how the EFL has a leg to stand on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodley Ram Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 The EFL are proving to be weak here, they have been pressured into going after Weds and ourselves by the likes of Gibson, yet they have approved both of the sale of the grounds. I have no doubt we will follow Weds in taking the EFL to court as you cannot agree to something and then say it’s wrong, that is double standards, also they would need to prove that the valuation was an artificial one and was outside the rules. for me this has two parts 1- can the independent valuation stand up to scrutiny, for instance what’s happens if the EFL get a couple of valuers to say in their opinion the ground is worth a lot less. If so given Mels good faith in the orginal valuation can Derby be penalised for that? 2- if the valuation is accepted, then can the EFL find something in the rules to say that the sale of PP was outside the accounting period that they are examined? this could run and run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnero Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said: Different people all coming up with different figures. It looks like a summary of the situation is: - we valued the stadium at £80m - EFL value the stadium at £50m - in order to comply the stadium value needs need be in the range of £55m-£60m I think we'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, admira said: Still no announcement by club. You’d think from the official website, nothing was happening. Presumably since Sheffield Weds got charged first, they will know their punishment first too. Will ours be similar I wonder? The announcement was made about 6pm last night, it's now 8am. Apart from the fact that nobody is probably working between these hours at a football club, I would imagine DCFC want to run any response past their legal team first so as not to prejudice their case. Do we really need to see their response this second? I think we all know what it will say anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexxxxx Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said: The only way that I can see that this bites us on the arse is if Derby have pulled the wool over either the EFLs eyes or the fans eyes. How can they have pulled the wool over the EFLs eyes? (a) Just telling them we had the ground valued but not disclosing the method of valuation used (b) Not informing them that the ground was being sold to a connected party (although this should have no bearing on the outcome) How can they have pulled the wool over the fans eyes? (a) Leading us to believe that the EFL were fully aware of the details of the transaction, when they only signed off on the principle of it. If none of the above has happened I really dont see how the EFL has a leg to stand on. I think this would seem to be the only reasons I could think of. But even still why does it take this long to get to a charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 22 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: I was under the impression that our net spend for the 3 seasons prior to this season was pretty much zero, so there must have been some sell on value somewhere. Camara turned out to be a bad signing but cost us less than £1m net at a guess. Doubt that the recruitment team had much to do with the signings of Butterfield or Blackman. Anya has turned out to be an awful signing. On paper looked decent but we definitely paid over the odds. It's the first time that I have seen the recruitment team being blamed for leaving us in a financial mess but there again alot of the accusations being thrown around at the moment are reaching new levels of weirdness! Based on Transfermarkt figures you're understating the net transfer spend 18/19 in - Waghorn (£5m), Marriott (£3m), Jozefzoon (£2.8m), Holmes (£0.7m), Evans (£?), Malone (£?) 18/19 out - Vydra (£11m), Weimann (£2m), Jerome (£?), Hanson (£?) Net - c£2m profit 17/18 in - Lawrence (£5m), Wisdom (£2m), Huddlestone (£2m), Jerome (£1.5m), Davies (£0.5m) 17/18 out - Ince (£8.2m), Hughes (£8.2m), Christie (£2.5m), Russell (£0.25m) Net - £8m profit 16/17 in - Vydra (£8.5m), Anya (£4.2m), Nugent (£2.6m) 16/17 out - Hendrick (£10.6m), Grant (£1.35m), Albentosa (£0.7m), Shotton (£0.3m) Net - £2.35m profit The issue is the £30m+ net spent in 15/16... We made a profit on Ince, we've still got Carson, but heavy losses on the rest we paid a fee for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodley Ram Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Carnero said: Different people all coming up with different figures. It looks like a summary of the situation is: - we valued the stadium at £80m - EFL value the stadium at £50m - in order to comply the stadium value needs need be in the range of £55m-£60m I think we'll be fine. Hi @Carnero where did you get those figures? They seem to make sense just wondered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodley Ram Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said: Based on Transfermarkt figures you're understating the net transfer spend 18/19 in - Waghorn (£5m), Marriott (£3m), Jozefzoon (£2.8m), Holmes (£0.7m), Evans (£?), Malone (£?) 18/19 out - Vydra (£11m), Weimann (£2m), Jerome (£?), Hanson (£?) Net - c£2m profit 17/18 in - Lawrence (£5m), Wisdom (£2m), Huddlestone (£2m), Jerome (£1.5m), Davies (£0.5m) 17/18 out - Ince (£8.2m), Hughes (£8.2m), Christie (£2.5m), Russell (£0.25m) Net - £8m profit 16/17 in - Vydra (£8.5m), Anya (£4.2m), Nugent (£2.6m) 16/17 out - Hendrick (£10.6m), Grant (£1.35m), Albentosa (£0.7m), Shotton (£0.3m) Net - £2.35m profit The issue is the £30m+ net spent in 15/16... We made a profit on Ince, we've still got Carson, but heavy losses on the rest we paid a fee for. I think the biggest issue is the wages not the transfer fees, hence why we have offloaded he big earners and I have a feeling is why Rush left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 12 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said: I'm still interested to know where the figure of £8.5m comes from. Our accounting losses only came to £46m for the 3 years and that is assuming that:- (a) no profit was made on the sale of the ground (b) there were no costs included in the DCFC accounts for qualifying academy expenditure Another thing that is being overlooked is that the actual profit on the sale of the ground was £60m (being the £80m sales value less the original cost of £20m) as for FFP purposes we would have received none of the benefit when the ground was revalued upwards from £20m to £55m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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