Rev Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, Andicis said: I actually do. Maybe not to quite upper half Prem, but they have the right kind of spirited squad that would rally around a new manager and with simplistic enough tactics stay up. Maybe not forever, but I don't think they'd immediately plummet. They have signed the right kind of personalities without an ego. Without providing a name, but I imagine the likes of Allardyce etc would all love a squad like Sheff Utd. Not a chance that squad would stay up under Allardyce. Right personality may apply, as you say, but you discredit their tactics too cheaply. It's not simple to play the way they do, takes hours on the training ground, and I don't think the PL as a whole have taken their different approach seriously enough. If Wilder navigates the season and keeps them up, he's manager of the year for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 35 minutes ago, Andicis said: Evans purely started because of injury to Bielik, not choice. He's not a first choice player, this is one of the biggest reaches to defend Cocu i've seen, outrageously so. Cocu has never picked Evans when Bielik is fully fit to play CDM. Shinnie was first choice because our other options were so bad. Cocu basically had no choice. He clearly didn't rate the player by the fact he didn't give him a sniff for months. Right… but the cover for our injured midfielders is now injured… we are without our first-team midfielders… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said: Not a chance that squad would stay up under Allardyce. Right personality may apply, as you say, but you discredit their tactics too cheaply. It's not simple to play the way they do, takes hours on the training ground, and I don't think the PL as a whole have taken their different approach seriously enough. If Wilder navigates the season and keeps them up, he's manager of the year for me. Allardyce rarely gets a team relegated. Certainly not one with as many talented players as Sheff Utd who have the perfect attitude. Wilder should definitely be manager of the year, he won't get it since Klopp will, but he's got Sheff Utd playing lovely stuff with overlapping centre halves. I don't think Sheff Utd would be as good without him, but due to good recruitment I don't think they'd drop from the Prem without him, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 1 minute ago, cannable said: Right… but the cover for our injured midfielders is now injured… we are without our first-team midfielders… Honest question: Do you think it makes a difference? Say if we had a fully fit midfield, do you genuinely think we'd be higher or have more points on the board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJovi Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Andicis said: Eustace pretty much was first choice in 14/15, Thorne was out injured was Eustace was a better player for the team than Mascarell. Evans has nowhere near the same impact, I'd argue he makes us worse when he plays, significantly so. For the very few games he had played, maybe. Yes, agreed. Which is why you have to adapt with what you have and get results. Which is part of my problem. Unless it's very extreme circumstances (i.e 14/15 with about 3 injured CDM's which you just can't account for) then you have to keep moving. Cocu is over complicating and tinkering too much. I agree Evans is poor, but there wasn't much choice. At least if Huddlestone was fit it would give Bielik chance to fully recover. What can he feasibly adapt to? That wouldn't be tinkering too much? I'd say he is dammed whatever he does right now, which is why I don't think the calls to sack are fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, BondJovi said: I agree Evans is poor, but there wasn't much choice. At least if Huddlestone was fit it would give Bielik chance to fully recover. What can he feasibly adapt to? That wouldn't be tinkering too much? I'd say he is dammed whatever he does right now, which is why I don't think the calls to sack are fair. Can't really tinker much less than he is currently. Ever game it's different personnel often by choice and often a different formation. The Championship isn't an overly complicated league, so why make it so? Adapt to what we have, the personnel available. Don't play possession style if you have poo midfielders. Bielik will always be injury prone, that's how he's always been as a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJovi Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Andicis said: Can't really tinker much less than he is currently. Ever game it's different personnel often by choice and often a different formation. The Championship isn't an overly complicated league, so why make it so? Adapt to what we have, the personnel available. Don't play possession style if you have poo midfielders. Bielik will always be injury prone, that's how he's always been as a player. We don't have the pace to play on the counter attack. We can't overly do long ball as that is not Martin's game and we lack the midfielders who will win second balls, or have I missed Holmes doing this. We have no creativity, not one tiny amount and we didn't overly last season. I would rather we try and address that first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Andicis said: Can't really tinker much less than he is currently. Ever game it's different personnel often by choice and often a different formation. The Championship isn't an overly complicated league, so why make it so? This is to fool the opposition. they will have done their homework on us, and so will be expecting us to play a typically Dutch Johan Cryuff inspired 433. And therefore they will hatch a plan to counter our 433 with say the Latvian defence. But we, then anticipating that they will adopt the Latvian defence will then shift our tactics to play a classic countergambit, such as the Budapest variation. And that will give us an advantage down the left flank. The trouble is that after we’ve pulled that trick a couple of times, the opposition are wise to it, and they will then anticipate our Budapest variation and respond accordingly with a classic counter ploy - either a midfield diamond, or an open ended rhombus . But Phil is one step ahead again, and so he goes double top with a number 10 in the hole. It might look like random tinkering to you or me, but it’s clever stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee SCREAMER !! Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 52 minutes ago, RamNut said: This is to fool the opposition. they will have done their homework on us, and so will be expecting us to play a typically Dutch Johan Cryuff inspired 433. And therefore they will hatch a plan to counter our 433 with say the Latvian defence. But we, then anticipating that they will adopt the Latvian defence will then shift our tactics to play a classic countergambit, such as the Budapest variation. And that will give us an advantage down the left flank. The trouble is that after we’ve pulled that trick a couple of times, the opposition are wise to it, and they will then anticipate our Budapest variation and respond accordingly with a classic counter ploy - either a midfield diamond, or an open ended rhombus . But Phil is one step ahead again, and so he goes double top with a number 10 in the hole. It might look like random tinkering to you or me, but it’s clever stuff. I see where your coming from but he could also employ the little used caterpillar conundrum by getting all the players in a straight line down the centre of the pitch thereby negating our inability to pass 5 yards in a straight line by giving us no choice. If we get within 10 minutes of getting a result he may choose to employ the lesser used Clough tactic known as the ' Theo Robinson windmill' where we take the ball into the corner and lie spread-eagled over it on the floor, allowing no one to kick it . Checkmate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 3 hours ago, Andicis said: Why is 7 matches the comparison? What has 7 matches go to do with anything? Who was the 7 matches against? Give me context, if you tell me it was as bad/worse, those are the questions you have to answer before I give any kind of answer, otherwise you've just cherry picked. They aren't the 23rd best goal scoring team in the league, and worst in the form table bad, no. Maybe Mac did have a better squad to work with, he'd still get more out of them than Cocu, though. You say I can't know, but in two spells I've seen a good coach come in and improve the players we have. I can speak with relative confidence that Mac would improve the struggling side we have. We are sleep walking towards relegation. You might not agree, that's where the sleep walking part comes in. We're in relegation form, and not in a hard run of fixtures, either. We should all be aware of the situation, we've been in an easy run of games and haven't got a win since when exactly? What player is going to come back and save us? Seriously. I would love to know. We're not in ''OK'' form, if you think that then you're very easy to please. We're in dire form, OK is dreamland for us at the moment. It was a direct response to your claim that the form under McClaren never got so bad that it was as poor as the form we've seen under Cocu. Except it has, a few times, with a better squad to choose from, injuries or not. I didn't say we ARE in OK form, I said up until the Preston match our form was OK, not brilliant, but there were numerous factors behind it. Our poorest form under Cocu has been since that game, which is where 7 games comes from. You're making definitive statements (not allowing for context yourself) and I'm disproving them. I'm talking about form in its purest sense - games played, points earned. You could do a deeper dive, look at the quality of opposition, goals scored, conceded etc if you wanted, but that would all come with the context that McClaren had a far better squad to work with, both times, even with injuries. The record we had up to and including the Preston game would have seen us on for around 62 points - obviously I'm not saying that football works in such an even, calculable way but why shouldn't I expect that if we got the players back we've been missing since that game we could achieve the same sort of form again? Multiple times you've said how poor or how unimportant some of the players he's lost through the season are, dismissed the effect their loss has had by claiming he didn't rate the players anyway and in the next breath you're telling me that the squad isn't that bad and we should be doing better. Honestly, and I mean this with respect, you're impossible! ? Nobody is saying McClaren did a bad job! I'm / they're just not accepting the glorification of even his poor spells and making out they were just blips in an otherwise exemplary record, and not using McClaren's record as yet another stick to beat Cocu with. I see you've gone on a posting rampage since this one so god only knows how many points I could argue against if it wasn't 2AM and I wasn't ready for bed! I really will be sleepwalking at this rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee SCREAMER !! Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 1 hour ago, BondJovi said: I agree Evans is poor, but there wasn't much choice. At least if Huddlestone was fit it would give Bielik chance to fully recover. What can he feasibly adapt to? That wouldn't be tinkering too much? I'd say he is dammed whatever he does right now, which is why I don't think the calls to sack are fair. Where is Huddlestone ? Is he out for the season.? Scored a penalty then wandered out the ground last heard saying ' I am going outside and may be some time.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 8 hours ago, Andicis said: McClaren coached Man Utd to the treble, no? If Fergie rates him, maybe neanderthal football fans should rate him? Regardless, I don't overly care what they think, I've seen what Mac can do and I know it's top level, whether they think it or not. When did Twente last win a title before Mac? Did Mac even have a positive net spend? He barely spent money. He worked within his means. Never heard a single fan mention Hodgson to us, or Redknapp, maybe I'm not hanging around an old enough crowd. Hughton isn't hipster no, but he's a more reasonable choice amongst the older crowd. The social media generation love a hipster manager. I'm of that age, but don't buy into it. We're talking about McClaren as a manager so his achievements as a coach at Man Utd arent relevant. His title at Twente, as I've highlighted, was achieved with a side that were on the cusp of winning things. As also evidenced by what he did with Clough's squad and a good & financially well backed Middlesbrough side, McClaren is a 'icing on the cake' manager. If there is a strong existing squad, he will do well. He is not a builder and in difficult situations with teams that have issues he fails...Newcastle, Forest, QPR, Wolfsburg and of course England. This is why he isnt getting jobs as often these are the situations where clubs are looking for new managers. Your point about his net spend is a bit deceptive. His MO was to get in Premiership loans, a couple of which we ended up paying big money for (Thorne, Ince). He was certainly backed on the wage bill side, no way could Clough have got Darren Bent at the club for example. My final point & I hope I phrase this without coming across as condescending. I notice in a later post you say you're 21 (surprised by that btw). I'm nearly twice that age & remember the high point of Cox's team and the whole of Smith's reign. Derby have been largely crap for 20 years & so I totally get the fondness for McClaren if that's the only real half-success you've seen. But put into context, it didnt achieve anything other than some entertaining football. Would McClaren have succeeded if we'd not sacked him twice? I'd argue not, you'd argue so. Clearly can never be properly answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ossieram Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abu Dhabi Ram Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 2 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said: We're talking about McClaren as a manager so his achievements as a coach at Man Utd arent relevant. His title at Twente, as I've highlighted, was achieved with a side that were on the cusp of winning things. As also evidenced by what he did with Clough's squad and a good & financially well backed Middlesbrough side, McClaren is a 'icing on the cake' manager. If there is a strong existing squad, he will do well. He is not a builder and in difficult situations with teams that have issues he fails...Newcastle, Forest, QPR, Wolfsburg and of course England. This is why he isnt getting jobs as often these are the situations where clubs are looking for new managers. Your point about his net spend is a bit deceptive. His MO was to get in Premiership loans, a couple of which we ended up paying big money for (Thorne, Ince). He was certainly backed on the wage bill side, no way could Clough have got Darren Bent at the club for example. My final point & I hope I phrase this without coming across as condescending. I notice in a later post you say you're 21 (surprised by that btw). I'm nearly twice that age & remember the high point of Cox's team and the whole of Smith's reign. Derby have been largely crap for 20 years & so I totally get the fondness for McClaren if that's the only real half-success you've seen. But put into context, it didnt achieve anything other than some entertaining football. Would McClaren have succeeded if we'd not sacked him twice? I'd argue not, you'd argue so. Clearly can never be properly answered. This, written far better than I could have managed after a couple of beers ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldben Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 Sacking the manager is the only thing that makes sense to me. Excuses as reasons as to why we the current position isnt the managers fault doesnt make sense, plus the managers hasnt been seen as a tactical expert at relegation fighting which might soon bw required. Frankly hes just not good enough as a manager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnyram Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 Found this article very very interesting, certainly many parallels to where we are now. With our current position and the fan pressure building, Mel will need balls of steel to hold his nerve and ride through the storm. I for one hope he does as we will never find out if Cocu can build something over the medium to long term if he sacks him now. It might prove to be the wrong decision but at some point we need to give a manager time and Cocu has been dealt a bum hand so far this season https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jul/28/phillip-cocu-Derby-frank-lampard-success-psv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OoooMarkWright Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 10 hours ago, Andicis said: Honest question: Do you think it makes a difference? Say if we had a fully fit midfield, do you genuinely think we'd be higher or have more points on the board? I think it’s pretty obvious that having your first choice midfield available would mean better performances/results. If Shinnie and Huddlestone as well as Bielik were available we’d have had more points, definitely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldben Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 So a manager who fails with a team, should in the hope they eventually bring improvement be allowed to continue even if it means potential relegation?! Lets look at some managers who are greater in worse circumstances than the clubs now in ... LEE BOWYER (CHARLTON) When the season started, Bowyer didn’t even know if he was Charlton’s manager. The club were in crisis, with staff working in semi-darkness to keep the leccy bill down, and Bowyer, in his first managerial role, was still caretaker in September having begun in March. To not only keep the Addicks steady but secure a play-off place, despite losing top scorer Karlan Grant to Huddersfield in January, is some effort. PAUL WARNE (ROTHERHAM) Yes, really. The manager whose team lost 6-1 the other week. Rotherham are unfortunate to be in the bottom three, giving seriously rough rides to the division’s top teams and winning more points at home than the promotion-chasing pair of Bristol City and Middlesbrough, only to be undone by so many results going narrowly against them. Warne picked up Rotherham during the worst campaign in Championship history and won promotion at the first attempt; given that half of his team have barely played at this level before, keeping them up would be even more impressive. A 2-1 win over Nottingham Forest on Saturday showed what they're capable of. DANNY COWLEY (LINCOLN) His three seasons at Lincoln have brought a Football League Trophy, an FA Cup quarter-final, promotion to League Two, an immediate play-off place and now – well, soon – the League Two title. So why isn’t Cowley higher? Because the 40-year-old’s good work meant Lincoln were one of the 2018/19 promotion favourites, with several players who simply shouldn’t be in League Two, including Jason Shackell, Michael Bostwick and John Akinde. That he’s in this list at all is testament to how dominant his team have been. GRANT MCCANN (DONCASTER) Several in pre-season, including FFT, thought Donny might struggle. Even their Fan File in our Season Preview – where every supporter tips their club for promotion or a play-off push – predicted a 17th-placed finish. McCann has made a mockery of such worries: in his first season, Doncaster are League One’s second-top scorers and occupy a play-off place ahead of Peterborough, who sacked McCann last year. MICKY MELLON (TRANMERE) Cowley has made Lincoln champions elect and Bury’s Ryan Lowe is League Two Manager of the Season, because obviously it must be announced in March, but Mellon deserves enormous credit for his work with Tranmere. The Scot previously took Fleetwood from the Conference North to the League Two play-off places before a bafflingly premature sacking, and now his Tranmere side are pushing inexplicably hard for back-to-back promotions. Although he has runaway Golden Boot leader James Norwood to thank for many a narrow win, Mellon masterminded seven consecutive wins with only two goals conceded – a run ended by Oldham last week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ram1964 Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 It's all gone tits up since Johnny Russell left,and continually worse since The Keogh sham. Appears to be no unity ,confidence, leadership positivity amongst the squad . Losing confidence with Coco but we can't be changing managers without giving them the opportunity to develop, nurture ,manipulate and transform the team.A quick fix is not the answer we need to overhaul the team and get players able to perform under the direction of Cocu. Rather than a bunch of mixed talent capitulated together by too many managers in a short space of time. Let's give Cocu a fair crack of the whip ,he has experience and a pedigree surely we are as bad as we are going to get.Good luck to the players and management tonight and hopefully the transfer window will be a turning point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 On 26/12/2019 at 17:15, RoyMac5 said: Well things are looking a bit grim with the way we're playing, we look confused, at best. So, Cocu in or out? Cocu in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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