New: Manager or not

[Andicis]

Just now, cannable said:

Wut

Seriously?! 

We’re our first-choice centre-back pairing down and three of our four first-choice centre-mids are injured, whilst the fourth has had on/off niggles!

Our first choice pairing with Keogh (fair enough) and Clarke who was regularly rested (lol). 

First choice centre mids? So Bielik gets niggles, Huddlestone is probably first choice (he shouldn't be), then you're claiming Shinnie and Evans right? Despite Cocu not fancying either of those two players. That's a reach. A big reach. 

[FlyBritishMidland]

11 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Just another one of Mel's many mistakes, in my opinion. We never really got it justified, and in return we got a man who was happy to flog Hughesy for 4 million, cheers, Mel. Mac was treated appallingly badly the second time around. He was brought in to turn us around and he did exactly that. Yet Cocu gets all the time in the world to relegate us. It would have made sense to give Mac time, we were never getting relegated, why pull the trigger? Why not back him? The reason not to back Cocu - We will genuinely go down. We aren't improving. We don't score goals. We're in relegation form. We're 20th. ducking 20th. We get 27k crowd, and we're 20th in this bag of poo league. Enough reason to fire Cocu right there.

I agree it was a mistake to not give Mac 2 time and I think Mel has learned from this (although I’m not sure he really bought into Mac 2).  Stability is key.  In another post you’ve mentioned Leicester and Sheff Utd.  Great examples but what both have in common is coming from League 1 and sticking with a manager.  Leicester may have moved on but Pearson (!!) took them from League 1 to the Premier League.

Great debate fella!!

[JfR]

3 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Our first choice pairing with Keogh (fair enough) and Clarke who was regularly rested (lol). 

First choice centre mids? So Bielik gets niggles, Huddlestone is probably first choice (he shouldn't be), then you're claiming Shinnie and Evans right? Despite Cocu not fancying either of those two players. That's a reach. A big reach. 

What would you say the pecking order at centre-back and centre-mid is?

[Uptherams]

6 hours ago, rsmini said:

Interestingly this popped up on my Facebook from 6 years ago. To compare it today. The goals against difference is only 3 goals 32 compared to 29. But we’ve scored less than half 22 compared to 48 goals 6 years ago. 
 

it’s clear we just are not creating enough for the strikers to fire home. Maybe we are missing the injured Shinnie more than we thought. I’d like to think Mr Cocu will try to sort out this obvious problem sooner rather than later. 

 

 

One player who has barely featured for us doesn't turn us into an attacking side like back then. The wheel is broken. 

[Andicis]

2 minutes ago, Coolascustard said:

I agree it was a mistake to not give Mac 2 time and I think Mel has learned from this.  Stability is key.  In another post you’ve mentioned Leicester and Sheff Utd.  Great examples but what both have in common is coming from League 1 and sticking with a manager.  Leicester may have moved on but Pearson (!!) took them from League 1 to the Premier League.

Great debate fella!!

Stability is key, within reason. If Mac had us 20th, I could accept him being fired. Cocu has us unacceptably low in the table in danger of relegation. We're too big for league one. We can't afford to go down. They came from league one, out of that fact they were mismanaged up to that point and not because they went down to league one as part of a plan. Leicester and Sheff Utd have an identity, they buy players to fit that identity despite the manager and have the man at the top as a replaceable cog and sign players to fit the style they want. That's what we should do. 

We're an equal/bigger size club than both of those, it's all about management. And we've been badly managed. Mel put his money where his mouth is yet made in my opinion foolish decisions on our management staff.

[cannable]

4 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Our first choice pairing with Keogh (fair enough) and Clarke who was regularly rested (lol). 

First choice centre mids? So Bielik gets niggles, Huddlestone is probably first choice (he shouldn't be), then you're claiming Shinnie and Evans right? Despite Cocu not fancying either of those two players. That's a reach. A big reach. 

Shinnie had started all seven games prior to his injury and Evans has started ten of the fifteen games he’s been fit for and he’s played 45 minutes or more in a further two…

[Andicis]

4 minutes ago, JfR said:

What would you say the pecking order at centre-back and centre-mid is?

Well even with Clarke and Keogh at the start of the season, we often played Bielik at the back because Clarke was relatively clueless in terms of passing the ball from the back and positioning. In an ideal world, my pairing would be Keogh and Davies, but as it is ideally Davies and Clarke. Which is more damning of the options we have than anything, and I'm sure Cocu would agree since he rarely picked Clarke at the start of the season since he clearly didn't rate him either.

At centre mid, Bielik, Knight, Holmes, Sibley, Shinnie, Huddlestone, Evans, Bird. Would be my pecking order. 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

3 minutes ago, Coolascustard said:

I agree it was a mistake to not give Mac 2 time and I think Mel has learned from this (although I’m not sure he really bought into Mac 2).  Stability is key.  In another post you’ve mentioned Leicester and Sheff Utd.  Great examples but what both have in common is coming from League 1 and sticking with a manager.  Leicester may have moved on but Pearson (!!) took them from League 1 to the Premier League.

Great debate fella!!

But both club's didn't really stick  with there manager as trajectory was always upwards.

It wasn't long ago Sheff Utd got rid of Clough when he dragged them from the arse end of league one to two cup semi finals . They may have made the playoffs that season as well. Following year, after a luke warm start he was gone .

Leicester went great guns under Pearson, Two promotions, he kept them up with a great last 5 games, then out the door.  The next fella won the premier league title.  Poor start and out the door next season. 

 

 

[Andicis]

3 minutes ago, cannable said:

Shinnie had started all seven games prior to his injury and Evans has started ten of the fifteen games he’s been fit for and he’s played 45 minutes or more in a further two…

Evans purely started because of injury to Bielik, not choice. He's not a first choice player, this is one of the biggest reaches to defend Cocu i've seen, outrageously so. Cocu has never picked Evans when Bielik is fully fit to play CDM. Shinnie was first choice because our other options were so bad. Cocu basically had no choice. He clearly didn't rate the player by the fact he didn't give him a sniff for months.

[FlyBritishMidland]

1 minute ago, Andicis said:

Stability is key, within reason. If Mac had us 20th, I could accept him being fired. Cocu has us unacceptably low in the table in danger of relegation. We're too big for league one. We can't afford to go down. They came from league one, out of that fact they were mismanaged up to that point and not because they went down to league one as part of a plan. Leicester and Sheff Utd have an identity, they buy players to fit that identity despite the manager and have the man at the top as a replaceable cog and sign players to fit the style they want. That's what we should do. 

We're an equal/bigger size club than both of those, it's all about management. And we've been badly managed. Mel put his money where his mouth is yet made in my opinion foolish decisions on our management staff.

Great points.  I do think we’ve made a lot of knee jerk decisions in the recent past which is why I want stability.  Can we afford to down, who can?  And who plans to get relegated?  We are, on paper, as big as them both but they both had to have a step back to move forward.  We have a great fan base and the passion on this forum is testament to that.  Maybe I’m a bit old and a bit more patient.

[Andicis]

Just now, Coolascustard said:

Great points.  I do think we’ve made a lot of knee jerk decisions in the recent past which is why I want stability.  Can we afford to down, who can?  And who plans to get relegated?  We are, on paper, as big as them both but they both had to have a step back to move forward.  We have a great fan base and the passion on this forum is testament to that.  Maybe I’m a bit old and a bit more patient.

I know we've had a lack of stability recently, which is why I think Cocu is avoiding a lot of the stick he could be receiving as a lot of fans are burnt out of change, and that is completely fair. I don't think sticking with a man that is wrong just to provide stability is right, though. If the man is wrong, we can give him all the time in the world and he won't turn it around.

People will accuse me of hyperbole, say I'm being over the top, etc, I'm genuinely concerned we're going to get relegated. Hand on heart. I'm worried. I've bitten my tongue for a lot of this season, despite knowing it's utter bilge because I thought we were not in any kind of danger. Now I'm scared for us. I don't want to be the next Sunderland. Pompey. Our fan base is great, too great for league one. We deserve more. Some might call me entitled for that, but I don't care, our fans are a lot better than a huge proportion of this league. 

I wouldn't say they stepped back, more that they fell so far they had no choice but to reevaluate the decisions they had made up to that point and make a conscious decision to change direction. But there is no reason we can't do that without dropping a league. Shamefully even Leeds are run better than us, and I loathe saying that. 

[FlyBritishMidland]

17 minutes ago, Andicis said:

 

 

11 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

But both club's didn't really stick  with there manager as trajectory was always upwards.

It wasn't long ago Sheff Utd got rid of Clough when he dragged them from the arse end of league one to two cup semi finals . They may have made the playoffs that season as well. Following year, after a luke warm start he was gone .

Leicester went great guns under Pearson, Two promotions, he kept them up with a great last 5 games, then out the door.  The next fella won the premier league title.  Poor start and out the door next season. 

 

 

Good points and I see where you’re coming from.  I get what you say but Arthur Cox wouldn’t have made it to Christmas in today’s world as it took him two years to get out the 3rd division!!  I just want a bit of stability.  Call me rose tinted or whatever but I do think it will come good.  My glass is half full!!

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, Coolascustard said:

 

Good points and I see where you’re coming from.  I get what you say but Arthur Cox wouldn’t have made it to Christmas in today’s world as it took him two years to get out the 3rd division!!

Thing is though, in today's age of player power once the players have turned against you, you have very little chance of getting them back on side. There is no such thing as a long term manager any more, 5 years is the max you can expect from anyone at the top. If you waste time with a manager scratting at the bottom of the league, when it eventually turns around what stops them jumping ship and going elsewhere? We have to move forward.

[Rev]

20 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Stability is key, within reason. If Mac had us 20th, I could accept him being fired. Cocu has us unacceptably low in the table in danger of relegation. We're too big for league one. We can't afford to go down. They came from league one, out of that fact they were mismanaged up to that point and not because they went down to league one as part of a plan. Leicester and Sheff Utd have an identity, they buy players to fit that identity despite the manager and have the man at the top as a replaceable cog and sign players to fit the style they want. That's what we should do. 

We're an equal/bigger size club than both of those, it's all about management. And we've been badly managed. Mel put his money where his mouth is yet made in my opinion foolish decisions on our management staff.

If you think Sheff Utd could line up another manager in the style of Chris Wilder, I'd love to hear who.

Wilder is a generational manager, you simply won't find another manager who plays the same way.

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, reverendo de duivel said:

If you think Sheff Utd could line up another manager in the style of Chris Wilder, I'd love to hear who.

Wilder is a generational manager, you simply won't find another manager who plays the same way.

I actually do. Maybe not to quite upper half Prem, but they have the right kind of spirited squad that would rally around a new manager and with simplistic enough tactics stay up. Maybe not forever, but I don't think they'd immediately plummet. They have signed the right kind of personalities without an ego. Without providing a name, but I imagine the likes of Allardyce etc would all love a squad like Sheff Utd.

[FlyBritishMidland]

6 minutes ago, Andicis said:

I know we've had a lack of stability recently, which is why I think Cocu is avoiding a lot of the stick he could be receiving as a lot of fans are burnt out of change, and that is completely fair. I don't think sticking with a man that is wrong just to provide stability is right, though. If the man is wrong, we can give him all the time in the world and he won't turn it around.

People will accuse me of hyperbole, say I'm being over the top, etc, I'm genuinely concerned we're going to get relegated. Hand on heart. I'm worried. I've bitten my tongue for a lot of this season, despite knowing it's utter bilge because I thought we were not in any kind of danger. Now I'm scared for us. I don't want to be the next Sunderland. Pompey. Our fan base is great, too great for league one. We deserve more. Some might call me entitled for that, but I don't care, our fans are a lot better than a huge proportion of this league. 

I wouldn't say they stepped back, more that they fell so far they had no choice but to reevaluate the decisions they had made up to that point and make a conscious decision to change direction. But there is no reason we can't do that without dropping a league. Shamefully even Leeds are run better than us, and I loathe saying that. 

I admire your passion and I wouldn’t accuse anyone of anything.  I don’t want us to be the next Sunderland or Pompey either!!  I get it’s not a great position to be in but I do think we’ve over achieved the last couple of seasons.  Maybe I’m glass half full but I do think it will come good.

[Andicis]

2 minutes ago, Coolascustard said:

I admire your passion and I wouldn’t accuse anyone of anything.  I don’t want us to be the next Sunderland or Pompey either!!  I get it’s not a great position to be in but I do think we’ve over achieved the last couple of seasons.  Maybe I’m glass half full but I do think it will come good.

We probably did over achieve for the last couple of seasons, but we're more than making up for it now with our struggling at the bottom unfortunately. I'd love to be glass half full here, but I don't see a way to turn it around short of us signing an army of new players in January and praying they come good or Rooney pulling out nothing short of world class performances regularly. We don't seem to have any kind of spark to drive us forward. 

[BondJovi]

3 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Evans purely started because of injury to Bielik, not choice. He's not a first choice player, this is one of the biggest reaches to defend Cocu i've seen, outrageously so. Cocu has never picked Evans when Bielik is fully fit to play CDM. Shinnie was first choice because our other options were so bad. Cocu basically had no choice. He clearly didn't rate the player by the fact he didn't give him a sniff for months.

Not first choice but a suitable back up. 

Eustace wasn't first choice in 14/15 but we missed him immensely when injured. Evans isn't first choice but if Bielik isn't fit...

Shinnie wasn't first choice at the start of the season but he had become a key player. Thorne didn't play for us until it was forced. 

Football is a squad game. Managers aren't always lucky enough to be able to keep the same side game after game. Take the 13/14 season, 13 players in that squad made over 30 appearances in the league. Grant, Keogh, Buxton, Forsyth, Wisdom, Bryson, Hughes and Martin all made over 34 starts. 

The spine of that team were fit and available pretty much all season. When that wasn't the case towards the end of 14/15 results fell apart. Most of that spine had been set up by Clough.

Cocu hasn't even had chance as there was nothing remotely like a spine when he joined, what little there was has since been sacked or injured. 

 

[FlyBritishMidland]

12 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Thing is though, in today's age of player power once the players have turned against you, you have very little chance of getting them back on side. There is no such thing as a long term manager any more, 5 years is the max you can expect from anyone at the top. If you waste time with a manager scratting at the bottom of the league, when it eventually turns around what stops them jumping ship and going elsewhere? We have to move forward.

And it’s a sad thing thing that there’s no such thing as a long term manager.  Sometimes it’s underestimated how long it can take to turn round performance

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, BondJovi said:

Not first choice but a suitable back up. 

Eustace wasn't first choice in 14/15 but we missed him immensely when injured. Evans isn't first choice but if Bielik isn't fit...

Shinnie wasn't first choice at the start of the season but he had become a key player. Thorne didn't play for us until it was forced. 

Football is a squad game. Managers aren't always lucky enough to be able to keep the same side game after game. Take the 13/14 season, 13 players in that squad made over 30 appearances in the league. Grant, Keogh, Buxton, Forsyth, Wisdom, Bryson, Hughes and Martin all made over 34 starts. 

The spine of that team were fit and available pretty much all season. When that wasn't the case towards the end of 14/15 results fell apart. Most of that spine had been set up by Clough.

Cocu hasn't even had chance as there was nothing remotely like a spine when he joined, what little there was has since been sacked or injured. 

 

Eustace pretty much was first choice in 14/15, Thorne was out injured was Eustace was a better player for the team than Mascarell. Evans has nowhere near the same impact, I'd argue he makes us worse when he plays, significantly so. 

For the very few games he had played, maybe. 

Yes, agreed. Which is why you have to adapt with what you have and get results. Which is part of my problem. Unless it's very extreme circumstances (i.e 14/15 with about 3 injured CDM's which you just can't account for) then you have to keep moving. 

Cocu is over complicating and tinkering too much.