New: Manager or not

[G-Ram]

3 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

I'd be disappointed if Rooney was up top, we have decent strikers already...they just get no service.

Rooney would be better utilised either behind the striker/s as a number 10 or deeper in midfield to actually get some cohesion & quality coming through there. Plus he works hard. I'd also imagine his presence in midfield should create space for others to be able to play

He had his best goal scoring seasons at united playing as a loan striker ?‍♂️ i agree id also prefer to see him further back because he likes to get on the ball & was decent there for Everton. 

But i wouldnt be bothered seeing him upfront because i think its a myth that we already have decent strikers. Waghorn never been prolific, marriotts never fit & still isnt proven at this level the odd goal against leeds & man u isn't proving it & chrissy hasnt regularly scored in years. 

Just think its more of a case that we are desperate for a creative midfielder more than a striker 

[Andicis]

3 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

I think you need to draw a distinction between 'struggling' and 'under-performing'. There is no way Derby in October 2013 were struggling..they were not performing to their full potential but McClaren managed to extract that out of them. When he returned in 2016, Pearson's bizarre selections had us in trouble but there was still a lot of talent in the squad & certainly enough to return us to mid table, which is what he did.

I dont believe you can compare either situation to the decimated squad Cocu has inherited. 

Just on McClaren, if you truly believe he turns around struggling sides and turns them into promotion contenders, why has he found it so hard to get work? A year unemployed after Newcastle sacked him, currently 9 months out of work after being fired by QPR

Because McClaren isn't trendy any more. Everyone wants young hipster managers, like for example us when we signed Rowett at the time. McClaren is better than a lot of the Championship managers. People look at Cocu winning the Eredivise, yet Mac's win over there was more impressive than Cocu's. 

You can't gate keep the term ''struggling''. When Mac took over from Pearson, we were absolutely struggling, not just underperforming. He turned us around in no time. 

Cocu has a pretty big net spend. Probably bigger than Mac ever had. Cocu is making his squad look worse with his shitty management. That's the thing.

[Andicis]

@Mistaram ever care to debate one of my points, instead of spamming the crying react on every single post I have? Would love to know what you disagree with, as opposed to unhelpfully spamming my notifications.

[RoyMac5]

33 minutes ago, Andicis said:

@Mistaram ever care to debate one of my points, instead of spamming the crying react on every single post I have? Would love to know what you disagree with, as opposed to unhelpfully spamming my notifications.

He he he that's Mistaram's thing. It's kinda cute ain't it! If I post something and it doesn't get 'a cry' from them I'm worried I've gone soft and slipped some rose-tinted spex on! ?

[Chester40]

38 minutes ago, Andicis said:

@Mistaram ever care to debate one of my points, instead of spamming the crying react on every single post I have? Would love to know what you disagree with, as opposed to unhelpfully spamming my notifications.

Don't know exactly what I find amusing about this...the slightly irksome spamming or your barely concealed irritation...but its making me chuckle. 

[Chester40]

It reminds me of when the kids are telling me something and are stumbling over their words, and instead of just completing the sentence they insist on going back to the start again. After a couple of times, feeing exasperated I will amuse myself by deliberately interjecting with a question.. . so they have to start again. They will say 'Dadddd, don't.!! ..' and start again. And obviously I will do it again.... 

They will get increasingly irate and I will laugh hysterically and they will keep trying to tell me the whole sentence and I won't just let them finish. They will be kinda laughing but also find it really really annoying and be half crying and hit me at the same time .... 

Just me?? 

[May Contain Nuts]

15 hours ago, Andicis said:

Martin was the lynch pin of the team and absolutely fundamental to the way we played. Add to that the necessity for holding midfield within that team, which we didn't have due to injury crisis too, I have a lot of sympathy for Mac. Mac did do wonders in an injury crisis, we've never had one like it, but I dare say none of the managers we've had since would have done anything like as good of a job of navigating it as McClaren did.

My point was purely a rebuttal to the comment that McClaren couldn't turn a struggling team around, he did it for us twice. When he took over from Clough, and when he took over from Pearson. And if he'd have been given more time, he'd have got us promoted in both instances. 

You say we got one good run of form from Mac (this is false), yet we've not had a single good run of form from Cocu. Just a run of ok, followed by an awful spell worse than Mac ever had.

And if you think Cocu is getting the amount out of these players that McClaren would, I'll have whatever you're smoking. We're sleep walking into relegation, in the worst form in the league and the second lowest scorer. We're pretty much praying Rooney flies in to save the day. The players aren't that bad, Cocu is making them play that way.

I said we had one good run of games under Mac 2, not McClaren overall - when he took over from Pearson he had one run exceptional run (13 games, 30 points) followed by one bad run (13 games, 12 points). Fact is once a team's form drops off under McClaren's tenure then there's little to no evidence out there to say he can turn it around. In 2014/15 he even admitted that he'd given up trying to find a solution to us conceding goals!

The bolded part of your post is pure hyperbole. We could debate whether he 'turned around' the Clough squad all day and all night, but the assertion that he'd definitely have turned the awful form back around and got us promoted 'given time' is pretty damn hopeful, at best. I'd say it's bordering on delerious myself.

Is our current poor form under Cocu "Worse than McClaren ever had" ? - No, not really. In 2014/15 McClaren had a spell where he got 3 points from 7 matches. The curent run (since Preston when we lost Shinnie, after losing Clarke against Forest) is 4 points from 7 matches.

If you individually go through the players in the squad we have available now then no, a handful of them aren't that bad, individually, but they're still much worse than either of the squads McClaren had to work with  and collectively it's massively unbalanced. It's that balance that's all important, as your point about Martin and the defensive midfield being so critical to his 2014/15 team proves.

It's impossible to say what McClaren would do with the current squad, I don't know and neither do you. He could turn up and be the McClaren who got QPR 38 points from their first 25 matches last season, or he could be the McClaren who picked up 6 points from their next 14 (including a run of 7 defeats in a row) before being sacked. Can you see a pattern forming here?

Using the "sleepwalking towards relegation' catchphrase does you no favours aside from winning a few applause reactions. It doesn't make you look more aware of the current situation than anyone else.

Personally I'm not 'praying Rooney sweeps in to save the day" I'm hoping the players returning from injury put us back on track to at least achieve the 'ok' form (23 points from 17 matches), that Rooney adds a little extra quality and we make a couple of astute signings (that, admittedly, is very hopeful!) which turn that 'OK' form  into pretty good form, and gives us something to build on for next season.

[LeedsCityRam]

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

Because McClaren isn't trendy any more. Everyone wants young hipster managers, like for example us when we signed Rowett at the time. McClaren is better than a lot of the Championship managers. People look at Cocu winning the Eredivise, yet Mac's win over there was more impressive than Cocu's. 

You can't gate keep the term ''struggling''. When Mac took over from Pearson, we were absolutely struggling, not just underperforming. He turned us around in no time. 

Cocu has a pretty big net spend. Probably bigger than Mac ever had. Cocu is making his squad look worse with his shitty management. That's the thing.

Is Chris Hughton hipster? Hes 61 yet seems to be on most fans lists when wanting a new manager. Roy Hodgson gets plenty of gigs, so did Harry Redknapp before he wound his car window up for the last time.

The reality is outside of Derby, McClaren isnt rated very highly. I also have no idea how you can rate McClaren's sole Eredivise title as superior to Cocu's 3 titles. Interested in your reasoning on that one. Just FYI Twente finished top 4 & within 10 points of the champions in the two seasons before McClaren arrived.

Cocu's net spend is skewed by Bielik, there isnt anyone else he has bought permanently. Not really reasonable to compare with McClaren at this stage.

[LeedsCityRam]

1 hour ago, G-Ram said:

He had his best goal scoring seasons at united playing as a loan striker ?‍♂️ i agree id also prefer to see him further back because he likes to get on the ball & was decent there for Everton. 

But i wouldnt be bothered seeing him upfront because i think its a myth that we already have decent strikers. Waghorn never been prolific, marriotts never fit & still isnt proven at this level the odd goal against leeds & man u isn't proving it & chrissy hasnt regularly scored in years. 

Just think its more of a case that we are desperate for a creative midfielder more than a striker 

I see what you're saying about our strikers but I'd argue they haven't been getting decent service for some time now. Even predating Cocu, I always felt sorry for Waghorn & Marriott in Lampard's teams as we never created much for them. 

Also I'd prefer someone of Rooney's class being in a position where can exert the most influence on the team & for me, midfield is the obvious area (and I think where he'd want to play himself)

[ramit]

i am not a fan of possession based football in this league, think mixed passing with high tempo and pressing is more effective.  It worked to a certain extent when Lampard was here because we had three high quality loan players capable of playing that way, but when they got injured the team suffered.  Cocu wants to play his way, but hasn't got the players to pull that off IMO.  If we avoid relegation, i suppose he can within two seasons build a competitive team this way and i admit that if we would gain promotion that style would be well suited for the PL, it's just getting there which is the problem.

[norwichram61]

On 26/12/2019 at 17:20, RoyMac5 said:

Morris should let cocu manage the way he wants, He had no say in the purchase of the 2 players, and the 4 bench warmers we got in on loan, also he had no choice but to accept roney, which I cannot see how he will 1) fit into the team, & 2 ) benefit the club,  he is on high wage thanks to the bet 362 sponsorship money, and like Lampard, given the first opportunity he will be off. In my opinion, cocu should change formation, if morris will let him,play 3 centre backs wisdom, davies, forsthy, play bogle and lowe as full backs/ attacking wing backs, who would give us the width, play 2 holding midfielders, play martin, or waghorn as the main striker, have mariott playing just off him, and give Lawrence a free role, like he had when he was on loan at Ipswich where he looked a world beater. We need to be better in the transfer market, vast sums spent on Johnson, Nugent, Blackwell, & Camara ( 13 million) and we got duck all in return. We are in a transition, 6 of the play off final team are no longer with us, and their replacements are totally inadequate. Lets get behind the manager, and team, as this season best we can hope for is mid table, and stop deluding ourselves we are a play off place team

 

 

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

McLaren got “found out” in both spells, in that a few teams started to work out how to stop us then others copied.

In the second spell it was quicker than the first (although he was blocked from getting Martin back which did not help).

At the time I seem to remember some moans and groans that there was no plan B etc...

The modern popular pressing game would make McLaren 3 unsuccessful  (in my opinion) unless he adapted style.

[Nuwtfly]

12 minutes ago, Dean (hick) Saunders said:

McLaren got “found out” in both spells, in that a few teams started to work out how to stop us then others copied.

This isn't a dig at you, but I think this is one of the biggest issues our fanbase has gotten tangled up in.

I don't think McClaren got found out. I think he got let down. Both times. 

[Sasha]

On 26/12/2019 at 19:03, Sexydadbod said:

If you were Mel, would you trust him with your money? I certainly wouldn’t, there’s a possibility that he’d be another Clement with his signings and set us back further years

Yes I would 

[King Kevin]

Now's the time if Mel's going to do it ,little point not letting any potential new manager [if there is one ] have the transfer window. As things stand it's getting tight at tHe bottom Middlesboro winning at WBA.

[AdamRam]

3 hours ago, Andicis said:

Because McClaren isn't trendy any more. Everyone wants young hipster managers, like for example us when we signed Rowett at the time. McClaren is better than a lot of the Championship managers. People look at Cocu winning the Eredivise, yet Mac's win over there was more impressive than Cocu's. 

You can't gate keep the term ''struggling''. When Mac took over from Pearson, we were absolutely struggling, not just underperforming. He turned us around in no time. 

Cocu has a pretty big net spend. Probably bigger than Mac ever had. Cocu is making his squad look worse with his shitty management. That's the thing.

Like McLaren did at Newcastle for example, or Forest or QPR, let's not forget England as well. I like Mac, but his last history is he is as likely to fail as he is succeed.

[AdamRam]

33 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

Now's the time if Mel's going to do it ,little point not letting any potential new manager [if there is one ] have the transfer window. As things stand it's getting tight at tHe bottom Middlesboro winning at WBA.

He's not going to go it though, may as well accept that.

[minesahartington]

2 hours ago, Chester40 said:

It reminds me of when the kids are telling me something and are stumbling over their words, and instead of just completing the sentence they insist on going back to the start again. After a couple of times, feeing exasperated I will amuse myself by deliberately interjecting with a question.. . so they have to start again. They will say 'Dadddd, don't.!! ..' and start again. And obviously I will do it again.... 

They will get increasingly irate and I will laugh hysterically and they will keep trying to tell me the whole sentence and I won't just let them finish. They will be kinda laughing but also find it really really annoying and be half crying and hit me at the same time .... 

Just me?? 

When you are trying as a senile old fella to explain you need a change of underpants those days will come back to haunt you

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

1 hour ago, Nuwtfly said:

This isn't a dig at you, but I think this is one of the biggest issues our fanbase has gotten tangled up in.

I don't think McClaren got found out. I think he got let down. Both times. 

Maybe he got found out AND let down, but to me it is not really arguable that in the season after Wembley more teams were setting up a way that stopped us playing in many games. We were still getting reasonable points return up to Xmas, but the games weren’t the same as the previous season.

[rsmini]

Interestingly this popped up on my Facebook from 6 years ago. To compare it today. The goals against difference is only 3 goals 32 compared to 29. But we’ve scored less than half 22 compared to 48 goals 6 years ago. 
 

it’s clear we just are not creating enough for the strikers to fire home. Maybe we are missing the injured Shinnie more than we thought. I’d like to think Mr Cocu will try to sort out this obvious problem sooner rather than later.