New: Manager or not

[MackworthRamIsGod]

Dean Smith could soon be available.

We cry out for the Brentford way.

[Andicis]

2 hours ago, Coconut said:

Martin went off injured in the 2-2 draw away to Bournemouth on the 10th February 2015

Following that Derby had a run of 16 matches where they picked up up 19 points, this despite having Darren Bent & Tom Ince on loan scoring 21 goals between them (because McClaren set up the team from that point on exclusively to provide just that, and not much else) and a squad which still included Grant, Keogh, Hendrick, Hughes, Bryson, Russell, Dawkins, Lingard.... some of whom were at the peak of their careers.

...compared to the current 27 points from 24 matches with a vastly inferior squad, even before injuries hit

Your assertion that McClaren did (ccomparative) wonders despite an injury crisis is totally misguided or severley rose tinted.

The team he took on from Pearson was still far better than the one we've got now, it went from underperforming under Pearson to overperforming under McClaren but eventually it balanced out and found itself mid-table. Keogh, Butterfield, Johnson, Hughes, Ince, Bent, Bryson, Vydra, Russell, Baird, Weimann, Shackell... don't kid yourself, you'd have most of those players (at the stage of their careers they were in then) in the team over what we've had to put out recently in a heartbeat.

Even with those players available, his turnaround only amounted to one good run of form (again relying on the Ince/Bent combo quite a lot of the time) followed by one awful run of form.

If you think what Cocu has had to work wtith this season (and then consider what he's had to contend with) is even approaching what McClaren had to work with (either time) then I want some of whatever it is you're smoking.

Martin was the lynch pin of the team and absolutely fundamental to the way we played. Add to that the necessity for holding midfield within that team, which we didn't have due to injury crisis too, I have a lot of sympathy for Mac. Mac did do wonders in an injury crisis, we've never had one like it, but I dare say none of the managers we've had since would have done anything like as good of a job of navigating it as McClaren did.

My point was purely a rebuttal to the comment that McClaren couldn't turn a struggling team around, he did it for us twice. When he took over from Clough, and when he took over from Pearson. And if he'd have been given more times, he'd have got us promoted in both instances. 

You say we got one good run of form from Mac (this is false), yet we've not had a single good run of form from Cocu. Just a run of ok, followed by an awful spell worse than Mac ever had.

And if you think Cocu is getting the amount out of these players that McClaren would, I'll have whatever you're smoking. We're sleep walking into relegation, in the worst form in the league and the second lowest scorer. We're pretty much praying Rooney flies in to save the day. The players aren't that bad, Cocu is making them play that way.

[Nuwtfly]

22 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Dean Smith could soon be available.

We cry out for the Brentford way.

Wanted him instead of Lampard.

No chance he'd come to us though, in our current state.

[BondJovi]

41 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Martin was the lynch pin of the team and absolutely fundamental to the way we played. Add to that the necessity for holding midfield within that team, which we didn't have due to injury crisis too, I have a lot of sympathy for Mac. Mac did do wonders in an injury crisis, we've never had one like it, but I dare say none of the managers we've had since would have done anything like as good of a job of navigating it as McClaren did.

My point was purely a rebuttal to the comment that McClaren couldn't turn a struggling team around, he did it for us twice. When he took over from Clough, and when he took over from Pearson. And if he'd have been given more times, he'd have got us promoted in both instances. 

You say we got one good run of form from Mac (this is false), yet we've not had a single good run of form from Cocu. Just a run of ok, followed by an awful spell worse than Mac ever had.

And if you think Cocu is getting the amount out of these players that McClaren would, I'll have whatever you're smoking. We're sleep walking into relegation, in the worst form in the league and the second lowest scorer. We're pretty much praying Rooney flies in to save the day. The players aren't that bad, Cocu is making them play that way.

You could equally argue that Keogh was pivotal for this team. Then take out Huddlestone, Shinnie, Bielik barely fit and now Evans out. Isn't that 3 DMs out at the same time? Does that not constitute a similar crisis?

I see Cocu gets heavily criticised for not picking a style that suits the mess of a squad he has. Yet Mac is excused injuries that stopped his style being effective, yet he stuck to the same way.

My biggest gripe about the call for a new manager is firstly a complete lack of context of the situations off the pitch, totally out of his control. Secondly,this ridiculous one rule for one and one for another. 

 

 

[Ramtastic ones]

Stick with Cocu. Nobody ever progressed by changing managers every 5 minutes. it's worked a treat at Chelsea they are flying aren't they - not.

Lawrence out for two games, means we'll be back to 11 players, instead of 10 and a half. What we'll miss in sporadic quality we'll (hopefully) make up for in effort, which is what we lack. 

[Andicis]

12 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

You could equally argue that Keogh was pivotal for this team. Then take out Huddlestone, Shinnie, Bielik barely fit and now Evans out. Isn't that 3 DMs out at the same time? Does that not constitute a similar crisis?

I see Cocu gets heavily criticised for not picking a style that suits the mess of a squad he has. Yet Mac is excused injuries that stopped his style being effective, yet he stuck to the same way.

My biggest gripe about the call for a new manager is firstly a complete lack of context of the situations off the pitch, totally out of his control. Secondly,this ridiculous one rule for one and one for another. 

 

 

We weren't playing well with Keogh in the team. When Martin was fit under Mac we were competing for autos. Shinnie isn't a holding mid, Bielik has been playing, Huddlestone is crap and Evans is at best a squad player. It's nowhere near a crisis of the same proportion, we can't lose a playing identity if we never had one to begin with. 

Mac's style was effective for about a year and a bit for us. Cocu's style never began to be effective. I can see why Mac would struggle when he had an injury crisis foisted upon him, Cocu's style never got going here. 

The irony of this last paragraph. You say the context is ignored, yet in your second sentence you then ignore context completely. Of course it's one rule for one and and another for another. Because contextually, Cocu's ''injury crisis'' is of nowhere near the same catastrophic damage as Mac's was. And since a lot of people are calling out McClaren in defence of Cocu, I thought it was worth pointing this out.

[RamNut]

Just looking at a few stats

 

Mac1 - 1 win in 9 - sacked

pc - 0 wins in 7, 1 win in 8 sacked

pearson - 1 win in 9 - sacked

mac2 -  1 win in 9 - sacked

rowett - 1 win in 11 - survived

lampard - 1 win in 7 - survived

cocu - 1 win in 9 - survived

Cocu (current run) - 1 win in 9 

 

 

 

 

[Coneheadjohn]

I bet some of these people who went Dutch with their profiles are starting to feel daft ?

[Carnero]

17 minutes ago, Van Cone De Head said:

I bet some of these people who went Dutch with their profiles are starting to feel daft ?

Only 23% of them.

[LeedsCityRam]

10 hours ago, Andicis said:

My point was purely a rebuttal to the comment that McClaren couldn't turn a struggling team around, he did it for us twice. When he took over from Clough, and when he took over from Pearson. And if he'd have been given more times, he'd have got us promoted in both instances. 

I think you need to draw a distinction between 'struggling' and 'under-performing'. There is no way Derby in October 2013 were struggling..they were not performing to their full potential but McClaren managed to extract that out of them. When he returned in 2016, Pearson's bizarre selections had us in trouble but there was still a lot of talent in the squad & certainly enough to return us to mid table, which is what he did.

I dont believe you can compare either situation to the decimated squad Cocu has inherited. 

Just on McClaren, if you truly believe he turns around struggling sides and turns them into promotion contenders, why has he found it so hard to get work? A year unemployed after Newcastle sacked him, currently 9 months out of work after being fired by QPR

[RamNut]

I think we are going come through this.

3 of the next four games are at home. The above stats suggest that one win will be enough to match rowetts 1 win in 11. The timing of the slump this time is prior to the transfer window (whereas Mac2 etc were after). The rumours so far suggest a new centre back - possibly rob dickie - and Scott Sinclair. We will have Clarke and Huddlestone back from injury and Rooney available.

Cocu’s track record so far would suggest a 4231 line up as follows:

                        hamer

bogle.      Dickie.  Clarke.  Lowe/malone

               Huddz.   Bielik 

waggy/holmes.  Lawrence.   Sinclair

                  Rooney

....and that should be good enough to start moving back up towards mid-table.

 

[LeedsCityRam]

Just now, RamNut said:

I think we are going come through this.

3 of the next four games are at home. The above stats suggest that one win will be enough to match rowetts 1 win in 11. The timing of the slump this time is prior to the transfer window (whereas Mac2 etc were after). The rumours so far suggest a new centre back - possibly rob dickie - and Scott Sinclair. We will have Clarke and Huddlestone back from injury and Rooney available.

Cocu’s track record so far would suggest a 4231 line up as follows:

                        hamer

bogle.      Dickie.  Clarke.  Lowe/malone

               Huddz.   Bielik 

waggy/holmes.  Lawrence.   Sinclair

                  Rooney

....and that should be good enough to start moving back up towards mid-table.

 

I'd be disappointed if Rooney was up top, we have decent strikers already...they just get no service.

Rooney would be better utilised either behind the striker/s as a number 10 or deeper in midfield to actually get some cohesion & quality coming through there. Plus he works hard. I'd also imagine his presence in midfield should create space for others to be able to play

[RoyMac5]

37 minutes ago, Carnero said:

Only 23% of them.

And 11% are no longer sure whether they are!

[RamNut]

5 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

I'd be disappointed if Rooney was up top, we have decent strikers already...they just get no service.

Rooney would be better utilised either behind the striker/s as a number 10 or deeper in midfield to actually get some cohesion & quality coming through there. Plus he works hard. I'd also imagine his presence in midfield should create space for others to be able to play

Maybe

there will be times when he drops deep and Lawrence goes wide right.

The rumours linking us with cosgrove might also mean a new no9  funded by Marriott going?

 

[LeedsCityRam]

15 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Maybe

there will be times when he drops deep and Lawrence goes wide right.

The rumours linking us with cosgrove might also mean a new no9  funded by Marriott going?

 

Remembering his playing style, I suspect he will be deep quite a lot as he likes to be on the ball. Whilst Lawrence hasn't been good recently, it'd be interesting to see him in a free role/able to switch wings & with more space to operate in. 

In a 4-2-3-1 with our current personnel, I'd have Knight and Bielik in front of the back 4, Rooney as a nominal 10, Lawrence as a nominal LW, Waghorn as a nominal RW, all with licence to swap at will.

You might be right re Cosgrove/Marriott, it just pains me that we could finally be sorting our quality of service out & then letting our best finisher leave! 

[RamNut]

7 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

In a 4-2-3-1 with our current personnel, I'd have Knight and Bielik in front of the back 4, Rooney as a nominal 10, Lawrence as a nominal LW, Waghorn as a nominal RW, all with licence to swap at will.

I’m not a fan of two holding midfielders. It means midfielders are either defensive or attacking and there is less scope for the traditional box to box players like knight. But that’s what he seems to favour.

(bielik and huddlestone are also massively overrated imo).

[AdamRam]

11 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Dean Smith could soon be available.

We cry out for the Brentford way.

The same Dean Smith who was taking Villa into mid table obscurity until their best player returned from injury and saved their season.

Mmmm, who said one player couldn't make a massive difference ?

[LeedsCityRam]

4 minutes ago, RamNut said:

I’m not a fan of two holding midfielders. It means midfielders are either defensive or attacking and there is less scope for the traditional box to box players like knight. But that’s what he seems to favour.

(bielik and huddlestone are also massively overrated imo).

I quite like it personally, mainly on the basis of the freedom it gives attacking players to express themselves as lessens defensive responsibilities. And consequently, less place to hide if they're not delivering.

Knight in particular has a fantastic work rate & would be ideal to cover Bogle/Lowe raids up the flanks. Bielik has only shown a glimpse of his potential but I fully believe his injuries have not helped.

[BondJovi]

14 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

The same Dean Smith who was taking Villa into mid table obscurity until their best player returned from injury and saved their season.

Mmmm, who said one player couldn't make a massive difference ?

Or when Fulham signed Mitrovic on loan...

[AdamRam]

3 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

And 11% are no longer sure whether they are!

Or the 11% have always been unsure, either way it's resounding majority who want him to stay as opposed to those who don't.

Im sure ultimately though 100% would rather he stayed and succeeded if that could guaranteed, hopefully he will get that backing over the next two games.