New: Manager or not

[May Contain Nuts]

33 minutes ago, GrimsbyRam said:

We lost 11 all season. Cocu has lost 9 already.  I really do not think that we had as bad a season as you make out.  

Even losing the players from last year, we should be in the top 10.  

As for the transfer window. He was backed.  He brought players in from the premier (Everton and Brighton).  He has a bigger net spend that Lampard. He sanctioned Paterson when I could have told him he is no better than Jamie Ward. He allowed Carson to leave (I do not buy what people are saying about his wages being an issue on the basis of what was freed up in the summer).  He would have been better using the Rooney money on getting a decent young loan player for the season.

I really want to be proven wrong but I just can't see it.

Counter points:

We didn't have a bad season, but the good times (and the bad times) were built on a better squad than we have now, IMO, all things considered.

We've lost more than just 'the players from last year' - we've lost a lot of the players from even the start of October this year, which already as a squad wasn't as strong as last year... our truly awful form this season has been the end of October onwards, before that we were sort of OK. Inconsistent, but not awful, definitely not relegation candidates.

We haven't had the opportunity to improve the squad since then and none of the injured players have returned to fitness, so I'm really not sure how anyone expects to see an improvement. People who backed him at the start of December and have now changed their opinion to Cocu out confuse me greatly, we were only ever going to get worse and we were hanging in there until January.

He was backed in the transfer window, but ultimately it was an ill-prepared shambles (much like pre-season) and he really hadn't had time to asses the squad properly when it ended. The whole Rooney affair was detrimental to any wider plans, but it may finally pay off soon. It may not. If it doesn't then at least, maybe having the players back who we've been missing since November will make a difference.

Carson had an injury hit season last year, but continued playing until we had no real choice but to replace him, such were his performances. His reaction times and his ability to get down to save low shots was seriously compromised - he was quite correctly dropped for Roos (by Lampard, not by Cocu) and like many a goalkeeper in such a situation (see Poom, see Grant) he/we made a decision that at this point in his career a move to a Premier League giant, where he's likely never actually haver to play but could pass on his eperience to the younger players, was the best option. There are many other experienced keepers who've taken the same path.

I think when you say 'he' could have spent money better (assuming you mean Cocu) it's a little bit unfair, given all of the above, which you have acknowledged.

We 'tried' to get a good young player on loan, but it turns out he's absolutely garbage. In the case of Dowell, Cocu was relying on the opinion of their acadmey director (or similar position) who he had a good relationship with previously at PSV. It was a gamble and it hasn;t worked, but he didn't have time to do a full analysis of how he'd fit into the squad.

[Ellafella]

1 hour ago, leamram said:

This is my favourite post of the year.

I'm amazed at the divide of opinions on in or out

Coc-in or Coc-xit? ?

[May Contain Nuts]

38 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

What if the Academy products aren't good enough? Where will we go as a Club? This constant re-iterating of we must bring through youth only works if there are youth good enough to compete. At the minute most of the youth competes for a spot at least on the bench because Cocu deems the squad not to be better.

Those are questions for Mel Morris, not me!

If the youth players aren't good enough then the manager who's remit it is to bring them though is doomed to failure through no fault of his own.

I'm fairly sure that if we'd have started the season with 6, 7 of the 11 players being academy graduates who hadn't played first team football until this point last season, and insisted in playing them all every game, then we'd be bottom of the league and by quite a few points!

[DCFC Ram]

It's come to something when we need to look below us to see what's next for us

We are due to play Stoke at home on 31st Jan. We will need a major turn around in form before then to avoid it being a seriously bottom of the table clash.

Continue as we have been doing and then lose v Stoke and we'll be seriously in the mire.

[S8TY]

That Pearson bloke at Watford appears to be doing well straight away....perhaps we should've gone for him instead of Cocu

doh!! we already had!!?......funny how some managers can be an instant success and some can't, its not always a sign you are good for the team long term.... maybe Pearson saw things he didn't like and tried to break up some of the bad eggs and upset some of the hierachy whilst he was here and long term might've been good for us who knows 

I still think the whole team night out fiasco should've been dealt with differently, if the reports were correct then DCFC players involved were a disgrace to the club for me....I might be slightly old school but I wouldn't want players being sick in the toilets and recording it then driving home late to be in my squad...you are representing Derby County Football Club everywhere you go and when you are out and therefore you conduct yourself in the correct way......I do not think the club/Cocu dealt with this correctly

[Andicis]

20 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Yeah, I particularly liked February to May that season as we collapsed from 1st to 8th. 'Oh, but there were crucial injuries'...funny how that excuse only extends to certain managers..

Except McClaren proved what he could do with a fit squad. Cocu hasn't. Mac also got us to first with absolutely brilliant football. But yeah, how dare Mac finish 8th!? Have we even been as high as 8th at any point after the first game this season? The reasoning of crucial injuries extends to managers who get the squad performing to a high level with a fully fit squad, like Mac did, regularly. Funny how you claim Mac got excuses made for him yet got sacked for much less than Cocu has already done.

[sonofmidnight]

8 minutes ago, S8TY said:

That Pearson bloke at Watford appears to be doing well straight away....perhaps we should've gone for him instead of Cocu

doh!! we already had!!?......funny how some managers can be an instant success and some can't, its not always a sign you are good for the team long term.... maybe Pearson saw things he didn't like and tried to break up some of the bad eggs and upset some of the hierachy whilst he was here and long term might've been good for us who knows 

I still think the whole team night out fiasco should've been dealt with differently, if the reports were correct then DCFC players involved were a disgrace to the club for me....I might be slightly old school but I wouldn't want players being sick in the toilets and recording it then driving home late to be in my squad...you are representing Derby County Football Club everywhere you go and when you are out and therefore you conduct yourself in the correct way......I do not think the club/Cocu dealt with this correctly

So true. Many years ago when still teaching I used to give the pupils a pep talk before we went on outings or had visitors in and said the pupils were ambassadors for our school and as such their behaviour should be impeccable and it always was.  How times change and  not for the better!

[LeedsCityRam]

Just now, Andicis said:

Except McClaren proved what he could do with a fit squad. Cocu hasn't. Mac also got us to first with absolutely brilliant football. But yeah, how dare Mac finish 8th!? Have we even been as high as 8th at any point after the first game this season? The reasoning of crucial injuries extends to managers who get the squad performing to a high level with a fully fit squad, like Mac did, regularly. Funny how you claim Mac got excuses made for him yet got sacked for much less than Cocu has already done.

Dont think you can compare what McClaren inherited in 2013 with what Cocu has walked into. Totally different situations & Cocu has had by far the harder task. Its therefore unfair to say Cocu hasn't proved himself yet or cite a league position.

My point was around injuries. McClaren was unfortunate that 14/15 collapsed because of injuries to key players. Cocu has had similar issues (I'm counting Keogh here also) but it would appear that is totally discounted by those wanting him out, some of whom are unashamedly touting McClaren to come back...hence why I made the comparison. It's a bizarre argument to say injuries only apply as an excuse for certain managers.

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Dont think you can compare what McClaren inherited in 2013 with what Cocu has walked into. Totally different situations & Cocu has had by far the harder task. Its therefore unfair to say Cocu hasn't proved himself yet or cite a league position.

My point was around injuries. McClaren was unfortunate that 14/15 collapsed because of injuries to key players. Cocu has had similar issues (I'm counting Keogh here also) but it would appear that is totally discounted by those wanting him out, some of whom are unashamedly touting McClaren to come back...hence why I made the comparison. It's a bizarre argument to say injuries only apply as an excuse for certain managers.

Key injuries for Cocu? Such as? Bielik who was injury prone before we signed, Clarke, Keogh which is totally unrelated to football, and who else? Huddlestone, who I don't think is actually good enough to start, maybe you can argue it I suppose. Shinnie who is a bit part. Compared to McClaren who had integral parts to the squad injured for huge lengths of time. 

Cocu has no more ''injury problems'' than any other manager in this league, whereas McClaren's squad did actually have an injury crisis. And he still got more out of them than Cocu is now. If McClaren came back tomorrow he'd get more out of these players. We'd see some more goals and a bit of creativity, too. 

Of all the excuses to make for Cocu, injuries isn't it.

[S8TY]

22 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Except McClaren proved what he could do with a fit squad. Cocu hasn't. Mac also got us to first with absolutely brilliant football. But yeah, how dare Mac finish 8th!? Have we even been as high as 8th at any point after the first game this season? The reasoning of crucial injuries extends to managers who get the squad performing to a high level with a fully fit squad, like Mac did, regularly. Funny how you claim Mac got excuses made for him yet got sacked for much less than Cocu has already done.

The football we played under Mac1 was fantastic and yet were mainly Clough's players and Mac tweaked it with a few loans etc....I remember the away night game at Brighton where i think if i remember correctly Johnny Russell played up front as CM was injured but we still played some fantastic stuff it was a joy to watch...

On the train home i was talking to Brighton fans and they said we were far and away the best side they'd seen despite somehow beating us 2-0 i think it was...

The point I'd like to make here is that Mac is a great coach but to me not a  manager and it was still mostly Clough's players who he had brought together yet Clough  could not get us playing like Mac did....If only we had tried them two together like a Clough /Taylor partnership I really think we would've had a good managerial team..... I remember Joey Barton blaming the fact QPR nosedived in the playoff final season because Mac had left Rangers to join us...we also went downhill when Mac went to Man U as assistant where they won the double....Clough and Mac would've been worth a go letting Mac do what he's good at and Clough the same ...shame really as i've always thought what if .....

[Rev]

13 minutes ago, S8TY said:

 

I still think the whole team night out fiasco should've been dealt with differently, if the reports were correct then DCFC players involved were a disgrace to the club for me....I might be slightly old school but I wouldn't want players being sick in the toilets and recording it then driving home late to be in my squad...you are representing Derby County Football Club everywhere you go and when you are out and therefore you conduct yourself in the correct way......I do not think the club/Cocu dealt with this correctly

I think you have a point here, although I wouldn't blame Cocu, but those above him.

I think sacking Keogh has sucked the spirit out of the club. 

He surely has a lot of friends in that squad who don't think he's been treated well. Whether you agree with that or not isn't really the issue, we're talking about overpaid pampered footballers here, not the real world. 

An accountant may look at the situation and say we can legitimately save these wages to pay a replacement, and they'd be right, but the cost to team spirit isn't tangible and able to be displayed on a spreadsheet.

I don't believe for one minute players opted to attend his Xmas dinner over a club one, but that's the sort of rumour that gains traction in these circumstances.

He was the fulcrum of the team for over half a decade, as confirmed by every manager we've ever had, the decision to cast him aside was based on financial circumstance, not the events of that evening, I'm sure of that.

If he was due £1.5m over the rest of his contract, hold your nose and offer him £150k for 10 years, should he somehow return to 1st team duty, accelerate his contract to match.

If I was his mate in that squad, I'd be furious to see TL miss a game then pick up where he left off, and it would affect my relationship with those higher up, and how deep I'd reach into the well when times are tough.

[LeedsCityRam]

Just now, Andicis said:

Key injuries for Cocu? Such as? Bielik who was injury prone before we signed, Clarke, Keogh which is totally unrelated to football, and who else? Huddlestone, who I don't think is actually good enough to start, maybe you can argue it I suppose. Shinnie who is a bit part. Compared to McClaren who had integral parts to the squad injured for huge lengths of time. 

Cocu has no more ''injury problems'' than any other manager in this league, whereas McClaren's squad did actually have an injury crisis. And he still got more out of them than Cocu is now. If McClaren came back tomorrow he'd get more out of these players. We'd see some more goals and a bit of creativity, too. 

Of all the excuses to make for Cocu, injuries isn't it.

Seriously? Irrespective of where he sustained his injury, Keogh's absence has caused massive issues at CB & our ability to play out from the back. Being sustained after the window closed, its left us in a very difficult position. Then Clarke gets done at Forest & then all of a sudden we have Craig Forsyth at CB!

Bielek was the big summer signing & has been so intermittently fit as to barely contribute. Whilst Shinnie wasnt favoured initially, he then proceeded to make an impact & of course got injured also.

Keogh and Clarke at CB, Bielek and Shinnie consistently in midfield and this team would be considerably higher than it is currently.

As to your last point, McClaren is not the man to come in & turn struggling sides around. It is very fanciful to think he'd have this rabble playing stylish football.

[Andicis]

Just now, LeedsCityRam said:

Seriously? Irrespective of where he sustained his injury, Keogh's absence has caused massive issues at CB & our ability to play out from the back. Being sustained after the window closed, its left us in a very difficult position. Then Clarke gets done at Forest & then all of a sudden we have Craig Forsyth at CB!

Bielek was the big summer signing & has been so intermittently fit as to barely contribute. Whilst Shinnie wasnt favoured initially, he then proceeded to make an impact & of course got injured also.

Keogh and Clarke at CB, Bielek and Shinnie consistently in midfield and this team would be considerably higher than it is currently.

As to your last point, McClaren is not the man to come in & turn struggling sides around. It is very fanciful to think he'd have this rabble playing stylish football.

He took over Pearson's struggling side and got them safely up the table, and his reward for that was getting sacked to bring in Snakey. 

Yes, seriously. You think other teams haven't had injury problems? Is it just us at Derby? Clarke was in and out of the squad when he was fit, he hadn't played very well anyway. He's gone up in people's estimation because Forsyth is poo. 

If anyone had done their history on Bielik, they'd know he has a poor record with injuries. This should have been something Derby were aware of before signing him. Shinnie only got in the team because Cocu had no other options, Cocu didn't rate him at all and got lucky that Shinnie performed well.

The only justifiable excuse is Keogh, which makes a difference I suppose, but not a huge amount in the sense of points on the board. 

 

[LeedsCityRam]

Just now, Andicis said:

He took over Pearson's struggling side and got them safely up the table, and his reward for that was getting sacked to bring in Snakey. 

Yes, seriously. You think other teams haven't had injury problems? Is it just us at Derby? Clarke was in and out of the squad when he was fit, he hadn't played very well anyway. He's gone up in people's estimation because Forsyth is poo. 

If anyone had done their history on Bielik, they'd know he has a poor record with injuries. This should have been something Derby were aware of before signing him. Shinnie only got in the team because Cocu had no other options, Cocu didn't rate him at all and got lucky that Shinnie performed well.

The only justifiable excuse is Keogh, which makes a difference I suppose, but not a huge amount in the sense of points on the board. 

 

Irrespective of Bielik's record, we would have expected him to play a significant part this season. You dont pay 9m (or whatever it was) & assume a player will only play a handful of games. He also still doesnt look fit when he is playing but that's the situation we're in.

And whilst it's true Cocu didnt see Shinnie as first choice, I assume he'd have gone for youth (Knight didnt start regularly until after his injury) if he didnt rate him at all. Point is Shinnie looked the part & then got crocked. Sometimes managers do fall onto solutions despite initial plans.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Keogh. The impact on defensive solidity, our style of play & on pitch leadership has been massive & will be reflected in our points return. It couldn't have happened to a worst player in our squad.

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Irrespective of Bielik's record, we would have expected him to play a significant part this season. You dont pay 9m (or whatever it was) & assume a player will only play a handful of games. He also still doesnt look fit when he is playing but that's the situation we're in.

And whilst it's true Cocu didnt see Shinnie as first choice, I assume he'd have gone for youth (Knight didnt start regularly until after his injury) if he didnt rate him at all. Point is Shinnie looked the part & then got crocked. Sometimes managers do fall onto solutions despite initial plans.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Keogh. The impact on defensive solidity, our style of play & on pitch leadership has been massive & will be reflected in our points return. It couldn't have happened to a worst player in our squad.

Even when Bielik plays, we don't exactly set the world alight. He played the other day at Wigan, didn't help much did it? 

Well we weren't exactly high up the league before the drink driving incident with Keogh playing regularly, we were still leaking at the back and we still weren't scoring goals. One player doesn't make a huge difference in points tally. If I'm being generous, we'd have at most 6 points extra from Keogh being in there. That's being extra generous, we'd still be absolutely turgid. 

If you want to say our squad isn't good enough, I'll accept that as reasoning (it could still be higher than it is, and it could be better than it is, though). Using injuries as an excuse doesn't really wash.

[LeedsCityRam]

Just now, Andicis said:

Even when Bielik plays, we don't exactly set the world alight. He played the other day at Wigan, didn't help much did it? 

Well we weren't exactly high up the league before the drink driving incident with Keogh playing regularly, we were still leaking at the back and we still weren't scoring goals. One player doesn't make a huge difference in points tally. If I'm being generous, we'd have at most 6 points extra from Keogh being in there. That's being extra generous, we'd still be absolutely turgid. 

If you want to say our squad isn't good enough, I'll accept that as reasoning (it could still be higher than it is, and it could be better than it is, though). Using injuries as an excuse doesn't really wash.

No he wasnt but like I've said, I still dont think he's fit & he's being forced back into action because of how unstable we are defensively.

Taking your extra 6 points, we'd be 12 points clear of the bottom 3 and I dont think there would be any serious talk of relegation trouble. Then saying you dont believe injuries to be a valid excuse doesnt make sense. 

Yes, I also do not think the squad is good enough & there are no easy fixes irrespective of who is in charge.

 

[May Contain Nuts]

49 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Key injuries for Cocu? Such as? Bielik who was injury prone before we signed, Clarke, Keogh which is totally unrelated to football, and who else? Huddlestone, who I don't think is actually good enough to start, maybe you can argue it I suppose. Shinnie who is a bit part. Compared to McClaren who had integral parts to the squad injured for huge lengths of time. 

Cocu has no more ''injury problems'' than any other manager in this league, whereas McClaren's squad did actually have an injury crisis. And he still got more out of them than Cocu is now. If McClaren came back tomorrow he'd get more out of these players. We'd see some more goals and a bit of creativity, too. 

Of all the excuses to make for Cocu, injuries isn't it.

Martin went off injured in the 2-2 draw away to Bournemouth on the 10th February 2015

Following that Derby had a run of 16 matches where they picked up up 19 points, this despite having Darren Bent & Tom Ince on loan scoring 21 goals between them (because McClaren set up the team from that point on exclusively to provide just that, and not much else) and a squad which still included Grant, Keogh, Hendrick, Hughes, Bryson, Russell, Dawkins, Lingard.... some of whom were at the peak of their careers.

...compared to the current 27 points from 24 matches with a vastly inferior squad, even before injuries hit

Your assertion that McClaren did (ccomparative) wonders despite an injury crisis is totally misguided or severley rose tinted.

The team he took on from Pearson was still far better than the one we've got now, it went from underperforming under Pearson to overperforming under McClaren but eventually it balanced out and found itself mid-table. Keogh, Butterfield, Johnson, Hughes, Ince, Bent, Bryson, Vydra, Russell, Baird, Weimann, Shackell... don't kid yourself, you'd have most of those players (at the stage of their careers they were in then) in the team over what we've had to put out recently in a heartbeat.

Even with those players available, his turnaround only amounted to one good run of form (again relying on the Ince/Bent combo quite a lot of the time) followed by one awful run of form.

If you think what Cocu has had to work wtith this season (and then consider what he's had to contend with) is even approaching what McClaren had to work with (either time) then I want some of whatever it is you're smoking.

[Remy the hare]

12 hours ago, RamLad1884 said:

 

Compare these two teams. Last game under Lampard v our current team now. Factor in the fact that this team was also missing the usual Duane Holmes and Malone. 

SIX of that current first team are no longer at the club, a further two are long term injured. Anyone who argues we should be far better needs to take a long hard look at the difference in these teams and realise most of those players were replaced with youngsters. Cocu is working with what he's got, and currently that is not a lot. 

I don’t buy the youngsters cocu thing.

3 academy players (Lowe, Knight and Bogle) started on Boxing Day and bogle featured most of last season. It really isn’t a revolution?

I maybe wrong but I doubt folk will talk of the “Cocu kids” like the busby babes or the class of 92. ????

[AndyinLiverpool]

Pellegrini's available

[Tyler Durden]

1 minute ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Pellegrini's available

Just seen that fair play not a surprise