New: Manager or not

[LeedsCityRam]

52 minutes ago, DRBee said:

To suggest that we wait until this time next year and if we are still struggling that would be the time to do something is ludicrous and ignores all reality. It wouldn't be acceptable to Mel Morris , new investors or supporters , never mind the fact we might well be in league 1 by then and our gates dropped significantly.

The Alex Ferguson/Man Utd story can't be our guide - its a very very rare event.

We're 6 points off the bottom 3 with Rooney nearly eligible to play, some decent fixtures coming up and a transfer window about to open. I dont accept that we're in such dire situation that relegation to League One is likely. Frankly, its hysterical to suggest that is the case.

Gates will hold up, this is Derby...not Leeds or Forest or Sheff Weds. Only one crowd below 20k for League games in 22 years & the Rooney effect will see a boost in numbers.

[Tyler Durden]

1 minute ago, Mafiabob said:

Breaking my rule in not posting...... this faction thing is a load of nonsense. It’s like with everything nowadays. Everyone has to be put into one group or the other..... (and yes I have done this earlier in the thread and regret doing it)

I want him to stay, but I’m not happy with every decision he’s made for this club so far, but I can see what he’s trying to do with what he’s got. 

Everyone has differing opinions on the club we love. It’s for me a sad state of affairs people get lumped into one side or another, when the majority are straight down the middle, supporting the club no matter what happens.

Its not just football, it’s politics, industry, public services etc..... even in my line of work too. You’re either for or against, yes or no, in or out...... polite decision making goes out the window for boisterous rhetoric and no thought for others.
 

Consensus has made way for bitterness, point scoring and petty arguments. It’s sad for me

 

Yes I totally agree with your sentiments though when there are threads and polls which are clearly polarised i.e. Cocu in or out then it is hard to then have a middle ground when the 2 responses are in/out or yes/no.

I couldn't have summarised more eloquently my feelings as you have done in your final paragraph.

 

[S8TY]

10 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Mate,cocu has responsibility for this...he's the manager..he chooses the squad,he trains them,he motivates them,he baalocks them..he is the boss.

If he didn't have responsibility,we we wouldn't need managers,we would just have a bunch of individuals running around doing what they wanted.

Which is what we have.

But you can’t change people’s minds ....it’s usually your own and if this division between the players is true it makes training and building a team togetherness virtually impossible ...there is not much Cocu can do about that ...he is a football manager not a psychiatrist ...and what would you do? Bring them all together and say “come on lads let’s be great friends and gel etc” I can imagine that is what the team meeting was about ...maybe I’m wrong ...the thing is Kash you can’t always change adults  minds if it’s made up ....I feel a bit sorry for Cocu because this looks a mess ...needs to get rid of a lot in my view but easier said than done mate 

[Chester40]

37 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

Yes @Chester40 I don’t disagree with the majority of what you have put and you have done so beautifully. I agree that we need stability and that we need to evolve a coherent system throughout the Club to ensure continuity and consistency; {Mel’s condition actually that previous managers have ignored}. And I want Cocu to be that manager so we don’t have to change again. But then I see him tinker; I see him play Forsyth at CH when we have Wisdom who played a season at Salzburg at CH and won the League. Forsyth’s distribution at CH isn’t good enough but he keeps being played. I saw us improve no end beating Preston at home and should’ve beaten Forest away but for profligate finishing under the diamond which made us look tidy and comfortable and which suits Martin and Lawrence which Cocu then unfathomably abandons. He refused to play Shinnie believing him not to be good enough yet Shinnie improved us 60% when he finally got a game because Cocu had no other options. But mostly I see a defensive, anti-football set up that I don’t recognise as football and I see a jumble of a game plan and a team with a League position which is rapidly getting worse. 
Then I hear Cocu explain and talk about a myriad things that the players did not do which lost us the game. And I wonder why the players are not doing them?? The other day I saw Wigan look like a superb team against us yet they’re bottom of the League and hadn’t won for 11 games and we scraped a goal from a long throw. 
 

But look at your post. Extrapolate our current form and trajectory and compare it with your sentence. You do not believe we will be relegated ...perhaps you are in denial? Perhaps you are not sufficiently heading the evidence? Mel will already be doing a risk analysis and he will have his concerns. 
People keep saying we can’t keep sacking managers which I totally agree with but neither can we afford relegation and week after week abject performances or if you believe Cocu performances that he was proud of despite the 3-0 score line to a team that were Below us in the table. 

“It is desired to render football worthy of the patronage generously bestowed upon it by the public and the committee will endeavour therefore to arrange matches...to witness matches of a higher order than have hitherto been played in Derby”.  Derby Mercury, 7/5/1884.

That is the Derby Way I believe. But on the evidence of what I’ve seen,I don’t think Cocu can deliver because his style is not in the spirit of football that we know. I may be wrong but I believe I’m right. 

Much to agree with there, some decisions have been baffling.. but that is always the way. If Wisdom was at CB looking as ponderous and terrible in posession as he can, then everyone would be saying Forsyth would be brilliant there (and this was definitely suggested by lots of people). If he had dumped Forsyth straight away he would criticised for showing no patience and chopping and changing. Every decision looks great when you're winning. 

The Shinnie situation can be seen as concerning, or maybe he wasn't showing enough in training and Cocu got the best out of him by playing him at the right time when he was motivated. 

Likewise,  if we were winning games, Cocu is a genius as the youth are being blooded and blended in with the first team. But while he is losing, its just him being a headless chicken and throwing them in.

I personally would definitely stick with a diamond and keep it tight. Our wingers are awful and none of the strikers particularly attack the ball in the box that well.  I think Cocu likes to keep the ball, be patient and build slowly /dictate tempo, so I don't get why he wouldn't... but maybe he feels that diamond system won't work long term for him ..

Who knows.. I have faith he knows better than me and you....

Fingers crossed we get chance to see who is right. 

 

[RoyMac5]

42 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I wonder what the tipping point will be for both factions when they start accepting the other camps points of view - will it be if we drop into the bottom 3 or will it be when we see some semblance of a coordinated coherent style from Cocu playing to the strengths of the players he has at his disposal. 

That may be the tipping point, of course winning will be a necessity too! ?

[May Contain Nuts]

What may be a tipping point in changing opinions is if any of those who are relentlessly negative and critical of every decision made by Cocu, refuse to give him any leeway whatsoever over the position we're in and say that he should "find a style to suit our available players" ever actually put one forward themselves, named their line-up and explained how the players fit into it and why they think it would have us shooting up the table.

 

[Ellafella]

29 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

Much to agree with there, some decisions have been baffling.. but that is always the way. If Wisdom was at CB looking as ponderous and terrible in posession as he can, then everyone would be saying Forsyth would be brilliant there (and this was definitely suggested by lots of people). If he had dumped Forsyth straight away he would criticised for showing no patience and chopping and changing. Every decision looks great when you're winning. 

The Shinnie situation can be seen as concerning, or maybe he wasn't showing enough in training and Cocu got the best out of him by playing him at the right time when he was motivated. 

Likewise,  if we were winning games, Cocu is a genius as the youth are being blooded and blended in with the first team. But while he is losing, its just him being a headless chicken and throwing them in.

I personally would definitely stick with a diamond and keep it tight. Our wingers are awful and none of the strikers particularly attack the ball in the box that well.  I think Cocu likes to keep the ball, be patient and build slowly /dictate tempo, so I don't get why he wouldn't... but maybe he feels that diamond system won't work long term for him ..

Who knows.. I have faith he knows better than me and you....

Fingers crossed we get chance to see who is right. 

 

As always I’m very happy to be wrong if it means Derby County are to the benefit. I note you haven’t addressed the belief/faith versus trajectory issue and I note you too have some doubts and questions. In my mind these questions are too numerous to be incidental. For me they add up to a manager who though he sounds and looks like he has a coherent and adaptive/progressive plan is in reality starting to flounder. And his 5 other coaches don’t seem to be adding anything in to change things either. I just hope I’m wrong. 

[Chester40]

6 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

As always I’m very happy to be wrong if it means Derby County are to the benefit. I note you haven’t addressed the belief/faith versus trajectory issue and I note you too have some doubts and questions. In my mind these questions are too numerous to be incidental. For me they add up to a manager who though he sounds and looks like he has a coherent and adaptive/progressive plan is in reality starting to flounder. And his 5 other coaches don’t seem to be adding anything in to change things either. I just hope I’m wrong. 

The trajectory is awful. That's my point... everything else is supposition based on those results. Everything looks awful and knee-jerk and desperate floundering because results are so bad... 

External factors are bad, injuries are bad, the squad is bad, luck has been bad.. We are in a spiral. 

But we keep faith,  Rooney will come in, other new faces will improve us and returning injuries will improve us. We will win games and look a better team. 

Those who don't buy in will go. Cocu will learn who he can rely on and the players will respect him for staying calm and insisting it will come good. We will settle into a style and relegation will be a distant concern. 

 

 

[Ellafella]

56 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

We're 6 points off the bottom 3 with Rooney nearly eligible to play, some decent fixtures coming up and a transfer window about to open. I dont accept that we're in such dire situation that relegation to League One is likely. Frankly, its hysterical to suggest that is the case.

Gates will hold up, this is Derby...not Leeds or Forest or Sheff Weds. Only one crowd below 20k for League games in 22 years & the Rooney effect will see a boost in numbers.

3 weeks ago we had 2 away games coming up against teams below us and arguably doing worse than us. 2 winnable games people said. But for a huge slice of luck we would’ve had 0 points and 0 goals from those 2 games. Ok we have 1 point out of 6 and 1 goal for and 4 against , from teams who have been routinely beaten by more than most this season.
 

So now we have 2 home games against very beatable opposition in Charlton and Barnsley. How will we do? What is acceptable? 3 points? 4 points? 6 points? Does performance matter? Should we see something different tried or is it shove Rooney on and hope? how should we judge it? 

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, Chester40 said:

The trajectory is awful. That's my point... everything else is supposition based on those results. Everything looks awful and knee-jerk and desperate floundering because results are so bad... 

External factors are bad, injuries are bad, the squad is bad, luck has been bad.. We are in a spiral. 

But we keep faith,  Rooney will come in, other new faces will improve us and returning injuries will improve us. We will win games and look a better team. 

The last sentence is supposition based on faith (not results!)..

[Chester40]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

The last sentence is supposition based on faith (not results!)..

Quite! 

[RoyMac5]

Just now, Chester40 said:

Quite! 

I'm an agnostic.

[Chester40]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

I'm an agnostic.

I'd say nihilist.. 

[i-Ram]

5 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

So now we have 2 home games against very beatable opposition in Charlton and Barnsley. How will we do? What is acceptable? 3 points? 4 points? 6 points? Does performance matter? Should we see something different tried or is it shove Rooney on and hope? how should we judge it? 

You tell us buddy. A day or two ago you said the majority of us on here were totally deluded.  

[Ellafella]

3 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

The trajectory is awful. That's my point... everything else is supposition based on those results. Everything looks awful and knee-jerk and desperate floundering because results are so bad... 

External factors are bad, injuries are bad, the squad is bad, luck has been bad.. We are in a spiral. 

But we keep faith,  Rooney will come in, other new faces will improve us and returning injuries will improve us. We will win games and look a better team. 

Those who don't buy in will go. Cocu will learn who he can rely on and the players will respect him for staying calm and insisting it will come good. We will settle into a style and relegation will be a distant concern. 

 

 

Ex fide fiducia! Confidence will come from faith. Commendable but a flawed strategy in football in my experience. 

[RamLad1884]

1 hour ago, GrimsbyRam said:

Easy to compare teams...however look at the team that Rowett got to and used in the Play off semi final:-

1 Carson

6 Keogh

33 Davies

3 Forsyth

14 Wisdom

44 Huddlestone

15 Johnson

8 Anya

10 Lawrence

19 Weimann

32 Jerome.

Can you honestly say that is that much different, quality wise, to what Cocu has at his disposal?  Waghorn, Martin and Marriott certainly comparable (if not better than ) with Weiman, Anya and Jerome.  He has Wisdom but chooses not to play him. He has spent £10 million on Bielek.  He allowed Carson to leave.  Even if people are a 'Cocu in' fans, it needs to be accepted that he is massively underachieving and is not getting the best out of the players.

I do see your point and agree to an extent, but look at the spine to that team and tell me its not a massive upgrade on what we've currently got:

 

Carson was in the form of his life that season, the main reason he's gone now is his wage, I'd say we miss him. 

Keogh and a younger Davies/Forsyth/Huddlestone was a brilliant group. Unfortunately all three of the latter have lost a yard or two to age. 

I'd have Johnson back in this team in a heartbeat, it was a massive shame we lost him in the summer. 

The front four there is pretty indifferent, but factor in the main difference, we had a top scorer of Vydra that year. A player like Vydra would probably have us closer to the top than the bottom this year, hopefully Rooney can fill the role. 

[Ellafella]

Just now, i-Ram said:

You tell us buddy. A day or two ago you the majority of us on here were totally deluded.  

It’s a legitimate question and “were {sic} totally deluded” is a mid-quote as there was a qualifier attached; and I’m not your “buddy” so please don’t patronise me just because I care enough to make my legitimate concerns known like I did with Jewell, Pearson, and Rowett and in contra-distinction to Clough and McClaren, who I supported. 

[Tyler Durden]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

We're 6 points off the bottom 3 with Rooney nearly eligible to play, some decent fixtures coming up and a transfer window about to open. I dont accept that we're in such dire situation that relegation to League One is likely. Frankly, its hysterical to suggest that is the case.

Gates will hold up, this is Derby...not Leeds or Forest or Sheff Weds. Only one crowd below 20k for League games in 22 years & the Rooney effect will see a boost in numbers.

It'll be interesting to see that any fall in gates are offset by the Rooney effect producing a net net result

[i-Ram]

4 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

It’s a legitimate question and “were {sic} totally deluded” is a mid-quote as there was a qualifier attached; and I’m not your “buddy” so please don’t patronise me just because I care enough to make my legitimate concerns known like I did with Jewell, Pearson, and Rowett and in contra-distinction to Clough and McClaren, who I supported. 

You care enough do you. That means perhaps not renewing your season ticket (again) if it doesn’t get any better does it? You seem to like to sing when your winning, buddy.

[RamNut]

I think he needs a mininimum of one win from the next two games.

to complete five easy fixtures without a win would surely be difficult to survive. 

I think we will get a win and limp on.