How long?

[AdamRam]

50 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

By using a similar system and rely on the evidence of what worked and what didn't last season. 

No point in going for continuity if there is none. The idea was to build. Even if it wasn't linear progression, the players from the U14s up would get used to the Derby way of playing. That means choosing a system and sticking to it. In that system you are bound to have a couple of players in the side who aren't in their favoured role, but they either adapt or get replaced in the next window. The theory then is, over a number of windows, we only bring in players to fit the system, so build a team and a squad. 

If the manager leaves, it's no big problem. We just recruit another one who will play the same system. That's the theory.

Yet Cocu hasn't continued. Cocu hasn't got a system. How can we build?

The alternative is a pragmatic manager who will adapt the system to suit the players. That's a short term solution and not a way to build. If we're going down that route  we're better off with Warnock.

And that's OK with me. Quick promotion and build a team in the PL. The continuity building approach is also fine with me. The problem is that Cocu is neither of these things. We are in danger of going down.

Ate you taking about a system or formation though ? Lampard changed the formation throughout his tenure depending on players available to him, he even changed his system as well, who can forget Leeds away in the league last year for example.

Cocu has a style that he wants to play, that hasn’t changed, his formation has, the problem is that he isn’t winning games. To many people get hung up on formations, teams often change them, they just go unnoticed when you are winning, and when things aren’t going well all the experts are out in force saying they should be doing XYZ etc....

Im  it saying he is going to be a success, however only 4 (I think) of last nights team were regularly playing under Lampard and 5 of them imo would not have even been playing had others been fit.

[Addingham Ram]

There seems to be some criticism that Cocu doesn't appear to be isn't continuing with what Frank and Jody started. How do we know what Frank and Jody started. Forget about all of the enjoyment of last year, for all we know Frank might have not implemented any new system through the junior teams, and as such Cocu and his team are effectively having to start from the bottom upwards.

It won't be a short term simple fix.

Cocu has played and managed (both successfully) at clubs that have long established systems in place. He must therefore have some good ideas of what it takes to make a club successful.

Lets keep the faith.

Cocu might not turn out to be the real deal, but to judge at this stage would be foolish.

[DRBee]

13 hours ago, therealhantsram said:

This is such nonsense.

I'll make 2 points.

1. All the problems you're seeing here tonight existed last season. Almost every single match we failed to turn up in the first half.  "Too slow out of the blocks" everyone said. It took a half-time rollocking to get into gear. These are not new problems that Cocu has created.  They are existing problems Cocu has been learning about. Frank couldn't fix them. Cocu hasn't had a window yet in which to attempt to fix them. And as posted elsewhere, for the period Mount was out injured last season, Frank's record was worse than Cocus.

2. We currently have a patched up third rate midfield.  Bielik, Shinnie and Huddlestone would all walk into this midfield. Instead we are making do with Holmes, Knight and Evans.  It's no wonder we look poor. And not only that, Cocu has had rotten luck with long-term injuries... Shinnie, Huddlestone, Keogh, Bogle, Clarke all missing for months at a time, and all 5 would be first  team starters when available.  You can't take 5 players out of a team for months and expect great results.

So calms yourselves down. This is the time for patience. Cocu is going nowhere.  Wait and see what happens in January.

 

Both points are excellent, but that doesn't mean that Cocu's is safe as manager. If we keep on losing and are relegation-threatened he will not survive. The unknown is how well is Cocu doing in the things he has under his control ? We can all see that his team selections seem random and inconsistent and certainly not all the consequence of the injuries and incidents he has had to deal with.

[belperram9]

I record Cocu’s post match interviews and play them just before I go to bed. Works wonders if you want to fall asleep quickly.

No player can be motivated by him. I see no personality, nothing, win lose or draw, he fails to show any emotion of any kind. I think that is showing on the pitch, players don’t  look fired up or bothered at all. It is slow, mundane, and laborious. I wonder if the players simply do not listen to him as he cannot motivate them with his monotone voice. At half time last night the lads needed a rocket, which I doubt he gave. 

[Bubbles]

2 hours ago, belperram9 said:

At half time last night the lads needed a rocket, which I doubt he gave. 

Saying this after the drastic improvement we showed in the 2nd half....

 

[YorkshireRam]

15 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

I think there is a bit of difference between being slow out the blocks and being truly awful. I don't remember many games as bad as that last season except Villa away. 

Yes, that difference being every half-decent midfielder from last season not being available right now: Mount, Bryson, Johnson, Huddlestone, Bielik, Shinnie & even Ledley would all have got into the side last night, whoever used the term ''third rate'' for our midfield at the moment is bang on...!

[Dimmu]

4 hours ago, belperram9 said:

I record Cocu’s post match interviews and play them just before I go to bed. Works wonders if you want to fall asleep quickly.

No player can be motivated by him. I see no personality, nothing, win lose or draw, he fails to show any emotion of any kind. I think that is showing on the pitch, players don’t  look fired up or bothered at all. It is slow, mundane, and laborious. I wonder if the players simply do not listen to him as he cannot motivate them with his monotone voice. At half time last night the lads needed a rocket, which I doubt he gave. 

Have to say I agree with that. The difference how he speaks Dutch is massive, that sounds way more motivational than his English. Great managers tend to have lots of personality and unfortunately I don't see that in Cocu.

[desirelines]

I don't think we should judge his motivational skills based on his appearances in front of the media. Even the most fiery of managers are drilled to give non-controversial platitudes in front of the cameras. 

[Rolleston]

Why do so many people believe in Cocu. We are half way through the season and it looks like the team is picked just like when I played Sunday league football. If you turned up you were playing, the formation was based on where you liked to play, not a system that the manager wanted. I don't understand why Cocu tries to anticpate how the opposition are going to setup and base our formation on that. Have faith in your own strenghths and let the opporsition worry about the way we play.

[Dimmu]

4 minutes ago, Rolleston said:

Why do so many people believe in Cocu. We are half way through the season and it looks like the team is picked just like when I played Sunday league football. If you turned up you were playing, the formation was based on where you liked to play, not a system that the manager wanted. I don't understand why Cocu tries to anticpate how the opposition are going to setup and base our formation on that. Have faith in your own strenghths and let the opporsition worry about the way we play.

I am very much uncertain. In normal conditions, I'd be "Cocu out front" as the football is not showing much of an attacking intent. But now, considering  how poor players he has available every single week and taking into consideration that during his PSV times, the attacking power came from individual skill, I am ready to give him time. I'm certain he can make us solid from the back and if he gets similar forward signings (okey, lower level but similar compared to the level of the league), we'll be flying.

[Srg]

On 11/12/2019 at 22:24, Archied said:

Click bait?? Nope ,seriously asked question

We’ve found Steve Nicholson

[richinspain]

On 12/12/2019 at 09:41, CornwallRam said:

By using a similar system and rely on the evidence of what worked and what didn't last season. 

No point in going for continuity if there is none. The idea was to build. Even if it wasn't linear progression, the players from the U14s up would get used to the Derby way of playing. That means choosing a system and sticking to it. In that system you are bound to have a couple of players in the side who aren't in their favoured role, but they either adapt or get replaced in the next window. The theory then is, over a number of windows, we only bring in players to fit the system, so build a team and a squad. 

If the manager leaves, it's no big problem. We just recruit another one who will play the same system. That's the theory.

Yet Cocu hasn't continued. Cocu hasn't got a system. How can we build?

The alternative is a pragmatic manager who will adapt the system to suit the players. That's a short term solution and not a way to build. If we're going down that route  we're better off with Warnock.

And that's OK with me. Quick promotion and build a team in the PL. The continuity building approach is also fine with me. The problem is that Cocu is neither of these things. We are in danger of going down.

 All very good points for me, up until the last paragraph. He hasn't got the players to play his system (I admit it, I've no idea what his system is), so he has to play other systems. After so many managerial changes and injuries he hasn't got enough players to play successfully any system (in my eyes).
 What are his options? Does he choose one system (the diamond seemed to work at least against the opposition we saw it in) and hope that they do well enough to save his job? Or does he keep tinkering, looking at players at his disposal to find their strengths and weaknesses in match situations?
 He really hasn't had a window to bring in his players. He didn't know enough about the players he had to make a valid judgment on them. He has also he terrible luck with injuries. He seemed insistent on using Huddlestone but then lost him. He possibly fluked upon Shinnie but then lost him. Bielik has been in and out. Even Martin must be struggling to keep up with the rhythm of games with the last couple of years he's had.
 I'm  not happy with the football being served up. I don't know if Cocu will be a success. However I do feel that he deserves at least until this time next year to bring in his own players and try to implement his style and system. And I've not even mentioned drinkgate!

[RamNut]

Wrong thread

[CornwallRam]

9 hours ago, richinspain said:

 All very good points for me, up until the last paragraph. He hasn't got the players to play his system (I admit it, I've no idea what his system is), so he has to play other systems. After so many managerial changes and injuries he hasn't got enough players to play successfully any system (in my eyes).
 What are his options? Does he choose one system (the diamond seemed to work at least against the opposition we saw it in) and hope that they do well enough to save his job? Or does he keep tinkering, looking at players at his disposal to find their strengths and weaknesses in match situations?
 He really hasn't had a window to bring in his players. He didn't know enough about the players he had to make a valid judgment on them. He has also he terrible luck with injuries. He seemed insistent on using Huddlestone but then lost him. He possibly fluked upon Shinnie but then lost him. Bielik has been in and out. Even Martin must be struggling to keep up with the rhythm of games with the last couple of years he's had.
 I'm  not happy with the football being served up. I don't know if Cocu will be a success. However I do feel that he deserves at least until this time next year to bring in his own players and try to implement his style and system. And I've not even mentioned drinkgate!

Today just underlined it. Cocu isn't going to work. No manager has ever turned around a situation like this. We're barely having a shot. The players don't look fit. The players just look confused. It isn't just a dip. It isn't a situation which needs a tweak. It's failure.

He has to go or we'll go down.

[richinspain]

7 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

Today just underlined it. Cocu isn't going to work. No manager has ever turned around a situation like this. We're barely having a shot. The players don't look fit. The players just look confused. It isn't just a dip. It isn't a situation which needs a tweak. It's failure.

He has to go or we'll go down.

I'm finding it very hard to disagree with the out brigade (that's not a dig or insult), but I still think that there are very few managers that could get much more from these players. I still hope that Cocu is given a chance with his players, at least let him get the sack for his own failures and not the previous 5 managers'.

[ThePrisoner]

Ah yes another manager. That’ll sort out the last five years of managerial change and disjointed squads!

[Ellafella]

19 minutes ago, richinspain said:

I'm finding it very hard to disagree with the out brigade (that's not a dig or insult), but I still think that there are very few managers that could get much more from these players. I still hope that Cocu is given a chance with his players, at least let him get the sack for his own failures and not the previous 5 managers'.

I don’t count myself amongst the “out” brigade @richinspain but it’s quite plain to me that the players are not giving that little bit of zip that tells you they “get it”. Some managers - and it’s often down to a nebulous personality thing - just make players play. However majestic Cocu was as a player he just doesn’t inspire with his pretty insipid and flat emotion. Very similar to Clement his verbal delivery is slow and laborious. The players never get beyond 2nd gear before the play breaks down or the ball is given away. It is slow, insipid, sideways-backwards, guileless, risk-averse, turgid, dross which Millwall dealt with easily today. 
 

If this style continues we will see fans drifting away. I predict less than 22 thousand at home come February it’s that un-beguiling. Sorry Phillip Cocu but your football is like reading a dull book on a cold day with a splitting headache. 
 

11 shots. 1 on target. 65% possession. At home. 

[Tyler Durden]

18 minutes ago, richinspain said:

I'm finding it very hard to disagree with the out brigade (that's not a dig or insult), but I still think that there are very few managers that could get much more from these players. I still hope that Cocu is given a chance with his players, at least let him get the sack for his own failures and not the previous 5 managers'.

I know that's an opinion but on what basis has that been formed.

How would anyone know if another manager could not get more out of a group of players, it's shear speculation

[richinspain]

11 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

I don’t count myself amongst the “out” brigade @richinspain but it’s quite plain to me that the players are not giving that little bit of zip that tells you they “get it”. Some managers - and it’s often down to a nebulous personality thing - just make players play. However majestic Cocu was as a player he just doesn’t inspire with his pretty insipid and flat emotion. Very similar to Clement his verbal delivery is slow and laborious. The players never get beyond 2nd gear before the play breaks down or the ball is given away. It is slow, insipid, sideways-backwards, guileless, risk-averse, turgid, dross which Millwall dealt with easily today. 
 

If this style continues we will see fans drifting away. I predict less than 22 thousand at home come February it’s that un-beguiling. Sorry Phillip Cocu but your football is like reading a dull book on a cold day with a splitting headache. 
 

11 shots. 1 on target. 65% possession. At home. 

As I said, I am finding it hard to disagree. All your points are valid, but please let's at least try to give a manager time. Rowett played (mainly) ? football but many wanted to give him more time. I guess he got lucky having Vydra's goals to paper over cracks. Maybe Rooney will do the same for Cocu?

[richinspain]

12 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I know that's an opinion but on what basis has that been formed.

How would anyone know if another manager could not get more out of a group of players, it's shear speculation

Agreed, so should we sack him and hope to get lucky? At least the new manager would be inheriting Bielik and Shinnie, Cocu's only permanent signings.