How long?

[Tyler Durden]

Just now, richinspain said:

Agreed, so should we sack him and hope to get lucky? At least the new manager would be inheriting Bielik and Shinnie, Cocu's only permanent signings.

Again you choose to formulate your response by insinuating that another manager would yield the same results currently being seen.

Same question stands, how can anyone know that another manager would not be more successful with the same players? You seem to have already ruled that possibility out yet on what factual basis?

[CornwallRam]

27 minutes ago, ThePrisoner said:

Ah yes another manager. That’ll sort out the last five years of managerial change and disjointed squads!

The problem is that this isn't the usual wobble. Now I'm getting on a bit, I think I'm a bit more discerning. I've seen this a few times in the past and it's what happens when the players give up on the manager. They don't believe in him - or so it appears. Maybe Cocu can do something that no other manager has whilst I've been watching the game and turn around the proverbial 'lost dressing room', but I don't believe so. What is far more likely is that the longer he is given, the more damage he will do.

Changing managers is not ideal, but IMO, the alternative is League 1 football next season. We're a very expensive club to run - administration would be huge concern. Personally, I wouldn't mind a season in League 1 if we had a great time dominating the division, bounced back up and took that momentum into the following season. The problem is that it's just as likely that we do a Bury. 

Yes - we are that bad. 

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

Personally, I wouldn't mind a season in League 1 if we had a great time dominating the division, bounced back up and took that momentum into the following season. The problem is that it's just as likely that we do a Bury. 

Yes - we are that bad. 

Or Sunderland.

We're not that bad, but we are under Cocu. I'm not convinced that if all the squad were fit that he wouldn't still be tinkering even after a win!

[Ellafella]

13 minutes ago, richinspain said:

As I said, I am finding it hard to disagree. All your points are valid, but please let's at least try to give a manager time. Rowett played (mainly) ? football but many wanted to give him more time. I guess he got lucky having Vydra's goals to paper over cracks. Maybe Rooney will do the same for Cocu?

Yep. Let’s give him more time but I’d wager that it’s not going to improve very much. I’ll hold my hands up if I’m shown to be wrong but it takes stamina to stick with it for 90 minutes. 

[richinspain]

29 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Again you choose to formulate your response by insinuating that another manager would yield the same results currently being seen.

Same question stands, how can anyone know that another manager would not be more successful with the same players? You seem to have already ruled that possibility out yet on what factual basis?

Not at all. If there was a guarantee that a new manager would improve the situation I would agree wholeheartedly with his sacking. The problem is that football doesn't work like that and literally anything could happen. I just want one manager to be given the chance. At the moment Cocu is in the chair, I personally think that he hasn't been given an opportunity because of the hand he's been dealt. For me it's twist, and hopefully not bust, until this time next year.

[richinspain]

30 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

The problem is that this isn't the usual wobble. Now I'm getting on a bit, I think I'm a bit more discerning. I've seen this a few times in the past and it's what happens when the players give up on the manager. They don't believe in him - or so it appears. Maybe Cocu can do something that no other manager has whilst I've been watching the game and turn around the proverbial 'lost dressing room', but I don't believe so. What is far more likely is that the longer he is given, the more damage he will do.

Changing managers is not ideal, but IMO, the alternative is League 1 football next season. We're a very expensive club to run - administration would be huge concern. Personally, I wouldn't mind a season in League 1 if we had a great time dominating the division, bounced back up and took that momentum into the following season. The problem is that it's just as likely that we do a Bury. 

Yes - we are that bad. 

Again I find it very hard to disagree, with what we are seeing. However again I think that he deserves a chance to put things right. Let him at least hang himself, not take the rap for someone else.

[richinspain]

30 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

Yep. Let’s give him more time but I’d wager that it’s not going to improve very much. I’ll hold my hands up if I’m shown to be wrong but it takes stamina to stick with it for 90 minutes. 

Agreed, but I want him to be given a chance. Rowett did very well with what he had, however I think that he showed at Stoke that even with money it wouldn't have got prettier. Lampard did very well for his first season as manager, but made loads of mistakes not least of all in the most important game of the season. He also had the luxury of probably the 3best loan signings the Championship has seen all at the same time. I'll also hold my hands up he's given a chance and fails.

[BramcoteRam84]

It would be disaster if the club get rid of Cocu. I don’t think another manager will necessarily turn around this group of players. We just don’t have the right squad balance especially in midfield. Mel has said we have to be sustainable, we can’t keep throwing money at it. Therefore we have build something. That takes time. Cocu is the man Mel picked to do the job, with some good logic and reasoning behind the appointment. It would be senseless to throw this plan out of the window after just 6 months. You would only do this in extreme circumstances eg. Threat of Relegation.

We are not under threat of relegation....yet. However a continuation of the past 2-3 weeks (we were actually starting to play well up to the Preston game let’s not forget that!) and Mel could have a decision to make. We have matches now where we should definitely be looking to pick up points. He has to pick up points! The run of games into Feb and the January window I think are absolutely critical for Cocu’s survival. If we as a minimum stay where we are and have a decent cushion from the relegation battle then he’ll be given the chance into next season. If not then I think Mel will be forced to make a decision.

 

[Jourdan]

2 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

It would be disaster if the club get rid of Cocu. I don’t think another manager will necessarily turn around this group of players. We just don’t have the right squad balance especially in midfield. Mel has said we have to be sustainable, we can’t keep throwing money at it. Therefore we have build something. That takes time. Cocu is the man Mel picked to do the job, with some good logic and reasoning behind the appointment. It would be senseless to throw this plan out of the window after just 6 months. You would only do this in extreme circumstances eg. Threat of Relegation.

We are not under threat of relegation....yet. However a continuation of the past 2-3 weeks (we were actually starting to play well up to the Preston game let’s not forget that!) and Mel could have a decision to make. We have matches now where we should definitely be looking to pick up points. He has to pick up points! The run of games into Feb and the January window I think are absolutely critical for Cocu’s survival. If we as a minimum stay where we are and have a decent cushion from the relegation battle then he’ll be given the chance into next season. If not then I think Mel will be forced to make a decision.

 

The trouble is that this appointment was never one you could describe as logical. Logical would have been hiring Hughton, Monk, or someone of that ilk, a manager well versed in Championship football. Especially given the knock-on effects of Lampard's departure.

When Cocu was first announced, many could barely contain their disbelief. He was on absolutely no-one's radar. Cocu's reputation was such at the time that many thought he could have landed a Premier League job. Not little old Derby.

The reality is, clubs in this division only make high profile appointments such as this with the expectation that the manager will be a cut above - e.g. Bielsa at Leeds and Bilic at WBA - and breeze through the division.

What we are seeing is something that I really don't think was part of the plan, and hence why we are seeing the desperate, senseless tinkering and shuffling of the pack. Cocu possibly underestimated the difficulty of Championship football and - dare I say - fell into the trap of believing his own hype and believing he was above the division.

To be honest, it seems cruel to prolong this. Cruel on the fans who aren't enjoying the football, cruel on the players who aren't enjoying playing for him, and cruel on Cocu too whose reputation is in absolute tatters.

[BramcoteRam84]

2 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

The trouble is that this appointment was never one you could describe as logical. Logical would have been hiring Hughton, Monk, or someone of that ilk, a manager well versed in Championship football. Especially given the knock-on effects of Lampard's departure.

When Cocu was first announced, many could barely contain their disbelief. He was on absolutely no-one's radar. Cocu's reputation was such at the time that many thought he could have landed a Premier League job. Not little old Derby.

The reality is, clubs in this division only make high profile appointments such as this with the expectation that the manager will be a cut above - e.g. Bielsa at Leeds and Bilic at WBA - and breeze through the division.

What we are seeing is something that I really don't think was part of the plan, and hence why we are seeing the desperate, senseless tinkering and shuffling of the pack. Cocu possibly underestimated the difficulty of Championship football and - dare I say - fell into the trap of believing his own hype and believing he was above the division.

To be honest, it seems cruel to prolong this. Cruel on the fans who aren't enjoying the football, cruel on the players who aren't enjoying playing for him, and cruel on Cocu too whose reputation is in absolute tatters.

The route we’ve been down before (and one I probably would’ve have supported).

He decided to move for him based on research he had done and on stats (which I think some on here pointed to a FourFourTwo article) around level of success for relative budget and Cocu ranked pretty high up globally. He wanted someone who would build and develop youth and during the interview process it was clear to him Cocu was the right guy.

It’s not going well, however the “”tinkering “ as you say is down to firstly to injuries, and secondly down to players not delivering either because they are not good enough or because the balance of the team isn’t right to get the best out of them - it’s not his squad yet and therefore IMO cannot be judged yet - especially when he doesn’t actually have a midfield- he has a bunch of defenders and a bunch of attackers and no one to link the two - except possibly Shinnie - 1 player!!

He also strikes me as a humble modest individual despite his success in the game so don’t agree with your “believed his own hype” comment.

It’s been way worse than this. Patience is required but accept we are sucked into a relegation battle decisions will be made and he wont have many complaints

 

[Cisse]

Our squad sucks. We need a couple of quality signings/loans to compete better. Cocu should be given at least a chance to get his own men in to the squad.

I doubt Billie Davies or Stevie Mac would do much better with our current squad.

[Ellafella]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

The trouble is that this appointment was never one you could describe as logical. Logical would have been hiring Hughton, Monk, or someone of that ilk, a manager well versed in Championship football. Especially given the knock-on effects of Lampard's departure.

When Cocu was first announced, many could barely contain their disbelief. He was on absolutely no-one's radar. Cocu's reputation was such at the time that many thought he could have landed a Premier League job. Not little old Derby.

The reality is, clubs in this division only make high profile appointments such as this with the expectation that the manager will be a cut above - e.g. Bielsa at Leeds and Bilic at WBA - and breeze through the division.

What we are seeing is something that I really don't think was part of the plan, and hence why we are seeing the desperate, senseless tinkering and shuffling of the pack. Cocu possibly underestimated the difficulty of Championship football and - dare I say - fell into the trap of believing his own hype and believing he was above the division.

To be honest, it seems cruel to prolong this. Cruel on the fans who aren't enjoying the football, cruel on the players who aren't enjoying playing for him, and cruel on Cocu too whose reputation is in absolute tatters.

This ^. It’s not working. I am the boy in the crowd crying “the Emperor is naked”. 

[Ken Tram]

On 12/12/2019 at 12:23, belperram9 said:

I record Cocu’s post match interviews and play them just before I go to bed. Works wonders if you want to fall asleep quickly.

No player can be motivated by him. I see no personality, nothing, win lose or draw, he fails to show any emotion of any kind. I think that is showing on the pitch, players don’t  look fired up or bothered at all. It is slow, mundane, and laborious. I wonder if the players simply do not listen to him as he cannot motivate them with his monotone voice. At half time last night the lads needed a rocket, which I doubt he gave. 

I wonder if lots of our squad need more direction than Cocu is used to having to give - and maybe Rooney will help translate Cocu's vision into plain language and instructions? (If this is a problem.)

[Jourdan]

1 hour ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

The route we’ve been down before (and one I probably would’ve have supported).

He decided to move for him based on research he had done and on stats (which I think some on here pointed to a FourFourTwo article) around level of success for relative budget and Cocu ranked pretty high up globally. He wanted someone who would build and develop youth and during the interview process it was clear to him Cocu was the right guy.

It’s not going well, however the “”tinkering “ as you say is down to firstly to injuries, and secondly down to players not delivering either because they are not good enough or because the balance of the team isn’t right to get the best out of them - it’s not his squad yet and therefore IMO cannot be judged yet - especially when he doesn’t actually have a midfield- he has a bunch of defenders and a bunch of attackers and no one to link the two - except possibly Shinnie - 1 player!!

He also strikes me as a humble modest individual despite his success in the game so don’t agree with your “believed his own hype” comment.

It’s been way worse than this. Patience is required but accept we are sucked into a relegation battle decisions will be made and he wont have many complaints

 

I just don't buy it, though. We are a Championship club and it's probably the most results-driven division in the country and possibly in the whole of Europe. Is there room for a four year plan, a philosophy, and a long term vision? 

It's all laudable, don't get me wrong. But why would Cocu - someone who has only played for and managed traditionally top flight clubs and could command a job in a top European league - take his first job in England outside of the Premier League if he didn't back himself to get Derby out of the Championship as quickly and as impressively as possible?

Do you really think he signed a four-year contract and agreed to this 'vision' knowing very well it could be two or three years before we got promoted?

I really highly doubt it. This job does nothing for his reputation and does nothing for us if we don't find success quickly.

[BramcoteRam84]

2 hours ago, Jourdan said:

I just don't buy it, though. We are a Championship club and it's probably the most results-driven division in the country and possibly in the whole of Europe. Is there room for a four year plan, a philosophy, and a long term vision? 

It's all laudable, don't get me wrong. But why would Cocu - someone who has only played for and managed traditionally top flight clubs and could command a job in a top European league - take his first job in England outside of the Premier League if he didn't back himself to get Derby out of the Championship as quickly and as impressively as possible?

Do you really think he signed a four-year contract and agreed to this 'vision' knowing very well it could be two or three years before we got promoted?

I really highly doubt it. This job does nothing for his reputation and does nothing for us if we don't find success quickly.

The alternative - is constant change and spend lots of money we don’t have.

We had 4/5 seasons of Nigel Clough on which the 13/14 and 14/15 seasons under Mac were built. We might need the same again. 

The alternative would leave us where we are now or worst, may even risk long term future of the club.

im not saying give him 4 years before making any decision we would need to see signs of progress by this time next season if not then make the change.

[Tyler Durden]

 

How long - not long. Because what you reap is what you sow. 

[Footymum2017]

Has anyone thought that it may be MM that the players have a problem with and not Cocu? I can’t imagine that the sacking of Keogh has gone down well with a lot of the players and that will affect the dressing room and performances.

[uttoxram75]

1 hour ago, Footymum2017 said:

Has anyone thought that it may be MM that the players have a problem with and not Cocu? I can’t imagine that the sacking of Keogh has gone down well with a lot of the players and that will affect the dressing room and performances.

No, I don't think anyone has thought that.

[BathRam72]

On 14/12/2019 at 23:22, Jourdan said:

I just don't buy it, though. We are a Championship club and it's probably the most results-driven division in the country and possibly in the whole of Europe. Is there room for a four year plan, a philosophy, and a long term vision? 

It's all laudable, don't get me wrong. But why would Cocu - someone who has only played for and managed traditionally top flight clubs and could command a job in a top European league - take his first job in England outside of the Premier League if he didn't back himself to get Derby out of the Championship as quickly and as impressively as possible?

Do you really think he signed a four-year contract and agreed to this 'vision' knowing very well it could be two or three years before we got promoted?

I really highly doubt it. This job does nothing for his reputation and does nothing for us if we don't find success quickly.

There in lies the problem with a few of our fans who think it is their god given right to instant success.

In an ideal world yes it would be great, but this is football.

I am sick of banging on about the mish mash of players he inherited from the last half a dozen managers, who were moved on or moved on of their own accord for what ever reason. The lack of preseason due to the Lampard debacle.

The lack of funds due to over spending over the last few season. The incident earlier this season and injuries around the squad.

Have a little patients and give the guy some time.

[Jourdan]

1 hour ago, BathRam72 said:

There in lies the problem with a few of our fans who think it is their god given right to instant success.

In an ideal world yes it would be great, but this is football.

I am sick of banging on about the mish mash of players he inherited from the last half a dozen managers, who were moved on or moved on of their own accord for what ever reason. The lack of preseason due to the Lampard debacle.

The lack of funds due to over spending over the last few season. The incident earlier this season and injuries around the squad.

Have a little patients and give the guy some time.

No one thinks we have a god given right to success. Not at all.

We have been in the Championship for 11 years, so I don’t think anyone is under any illusions about where we stand in the footballing landscape.

No one has said it has been easy for Cocu either. Plenty of people have acknowledged the difficulties he has faced, while also feeling he could be doing a much better job.

What some of us have said is that appointing a foreign manager was the right step at the wrong time. It never looked wise given the protracted and messy nature of Lampard’s departure.

Personally, I think the club have gone public with this ‘We have a vision. It’s a long term plan’ to protect Cocu from criticism. But privately I think they will be disappointed.

I am sure Mel appointed Cocu expecting him to have a similar impact to Nuno, Bielsa and Bilic. And I am sure Cocu would have arrived believing he was capable of exactly that. Promotion in year 1 and then working to a long term plan in the Premier League makes a lot more sense and there is a mutual benefit for both the club and the manager.

You’re saying fans lack patience, but much of what fans are saying is valid.

Why be patient based on what we have seen so far? Why be patient if there are no signs that what is yet to come will actually be an improvement? What makes Cocu so special that he is worth investing all of this time and patience?

People would be a lot more supportive if we had seen 5-6 performances that gave us a glimpse of what Cocu was working towards.

We are 6 months in and no one has a clue.