BathRam72 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 11 minutes ago, Jourdan said: No one thinks we have a god given right to success. Not at all. We have been in the Championship for 11 years, so I don’t think anyone is under any illusions about where we stand in the footballing landscape. No one has said it has been easy for Cocu either. Plenty of people have acknowledged the difficulties he has faced, while also feeling he could be doing a much better job. What some of us have said is that appointing a foreign manager was the right step at the wrong time. It never looked wise given the protracted and messy nature of Lampard’s departure. Personally, I think the club have gone public with this ‘We have a vision. It’s a long term plan’ to protect Cocu from criticism. But privately I think they will be disappointed. I am sure Mel appointed Cocu expecting him to have a similar impact to Nuno, Bielsa and Bilic. And I am sure Cocu would have arrived believing he was capable of exactly that. Promotion in year 1 and then working to a long term plan in the Premier League makes a lot more sense and there is a mutual benefit for both the club and the manager. You’re saying fans lack patience, but much of what fans are saying is valid. Why be patient based on what we have seen so far? Why be patient if there are no signs that what is yet to come will actually be an improvement? What makes Cocu so special that he is worth investing all of this time and patience? People would be a lot more supportive if we had seen 5-6 performances that gave us a glimpse of what Cocu was working towards. We are 6 months in and no one has a clue. Whilst I agree with some of your post. I merely quoted the last bit of your post to get at those who genuinely believe we have a right to instant success (It wasn't a direct hit at you). However I still do believe that he needs to be given time and at least 2 transfer windows or we will still be in the same position next year with a different manager and the same squad who to be quite frank are not good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, Jourdan said: No one thinks we have a god given right to success. Not at all. We have been in the Championship for 11 years, so I don’t think anyone is under any illusions about where we stand in the footballing landscape. No one has said it has been easy for Cocu either. Plenty of people have acknowledged the difficulties he has faced, while also feeling he could be doing a much better job. What some of us have said is that appointing a foreign manager was the right step at the wrong time. It never looked wise given the protracted and messy nature of Lampard’s departure. Personally, I think the club have gone public with this ‘We have a vision. It’s a long term plan’ to protect Cocu from criticism. But privately I think they will be disappointed. I am sure Mel appointed Cocu expecting him to have a similar impact to Nuno, Bielsa and Bilic. And I am sure Cocu would have arrived believing he was capable of exactly that. Promotion in year 1 and then working to a long term plan in the Premier League makes a lot more sense and there is a mutual benefit for both the club and the manager. You’re saying fans lack patience, but much of what fans are saying is valid. Why be patient based on what we have seen so far? Why be patient if there are no signs that what is yet to come will actually be an improvement? What makes Cocu so special that he is worth investing all of this time and patience? People would be a lot more supportive if we had seen 5-6 performances that gave us a glimpse of what Cocu was working towards. We are 6 months in and no one has a clue. So really the only answer is to keep appointing and sacking managers every six months in the hope we drop lucky with one eventually ? Perhaps he is one who doesn’t produce his best in the conditions he has walked into but is great once he gets the players and atmosphere round him he wants, perhaps we could draft in a manager now who thrives in the kinds of situation we have just now but then wilts when asked to produce long term and build ( there’s lots of them around) What makes Cocu so special that he is worth investing all of this time and patience? 6 months?????? , 20 ish games??? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJovi Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, Jourdan said: No one thinks we have a god given right to success. Not at all. We have been in the Championship for 11 years, so I don’t think anyone is under any illusions about where we stand in the footballing landscape. No one has said it has been easy for Cocu either. Plenty of people have acknowledged the difficulties he has faced, while also feeling he could be doing a much better job. What some of us have said is that appointing a foreign manager was the right step at the wrong time. It never looked wise given the protracted and messy nature of Lampard’s departure. Personally, I think the club have gone public with this ‘We have a vision. It’s a long term plan’ to protect Cocu from criticism. But privately I think they will be disappointed. I am sure Mel appointed Cocu expecting him to have a similar impact to Nuno, Bielsa and Bilic. And I am sure Cocu would have arrived believing he was capable of exactly that. Promotion in year 1 and then working to a long term plan in the Premier League makes a lot more sense and there is a mutual benefit for both the club and the manager. You’re saying fans lack patience, but much of what fans are saying is valid. Why be patient based on what we have seen so far? Why be patient if there are no signs that what is yet to come will actually be an improvement? What makes Cocu so special that he is worth investing all of this time and patience? People would be a lot more supportive if we had seen 5-6 performances that gave us a glimpse of what Cocu was working towards. We are 6 months in and no one has a clue. You pick out Nuno, doing an excellent job but they have been massively helped by the use of a super agent. Players that should have been nowhere near this league. Bilic is doing a great job but he has a much better squad than ours. Pretty sure we were the better team when we played them earlier this season.Bielsa is fantastic, but he is unique. Had Cocu had the squad available now he had at the start of the season I think a lot more fans would be inclined to agree with you, but he doesn't. We have to be patient because the job he is trying to do is far bigger than just the face of the first team. The above managers you mentioned were tasked with promotion, that is not the immediate aim here. You don't always see gradual improvement, sometimes it all just clicks. One player could make all the difference. Would you really throw out all the clubs plans just a couple of weeks before the transfer window opens? Absolute madness. No fan is happy with current performances and results but you have to put it all into context. I doubt anyone at the club is happy with how things for the first team have gone so far but there is more to the club than that. Everyone involved has to take more responsibility. I would be asking serious questions of the senior players. If they can't get motivated by Cocu and now Rooney, I honestly don't think there is much hope for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireRam Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 24 minutes ago, Jourdan said: I am sure Mel appointed Cocu expecting him to have a similar impact to Nuno, Bielsa and Bilic. And I am sure Cocu would have arrived believing he was capable of exactly that. Promotion in year 1 and then working to a long term plan in the Premier League makes a lot more sense and there is a mutual benefit for both the club and the manager. You mention Bielsa but it's been a 2 year job for him too. Interestingly also, in the week Cocu has first publicly discussed the weak mentality of some of the players in the dressing room, this was Leeds' undoing last season too. If you truly believe that Cocu can turn a midfield of the inexperienced Evans, teenager Knight and winger Holmes into a decent championship midfield, you're massively naive. The squad was bang average before the season started, since we've lost both first choice CB's, an injury-decimated midfield leaving Evans as the only fit natural midfielder and not a single attacker is in any sort of form... I struggle to name anything a manager can do to address such issues. This is where the idea that no other manager could do any better comes from. The team that played on Saturday is bottom-half championship quality with no obvious selections missing that would improve it. I have started to see something you seemingly haven't as well which is Cocu's tactical input on how we play. Rigidity was key last year, positional solidarity and sticking to a defined shape; under Cocu there is far greater emphasis on rotation and I see a few examples of it each game. What I also see, however, is a lack of ability in the players to execute it well enough... Judging Cocu on the side currently available to him only screams short-sightedness to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 28 minutes ago, Jourdan said: People would be a lot more supportive if we had seen 5-6 performances that gave us a glimpse of what Cocu was working towards. We have... I don't understand this position fans are taking about not understanding what Cocu is trying to do - It's very obvious how he wants us to play and he's shown across a number of different formations that he has a method he wants to employ - We just haven't adapted to it yet (partly cos every time we start looking like it might click we lose 2 players!) - I think people get too bogged down in the simple "formation = style" which isn't true - Mourinho at Chelsea (v1) had a basic formation but it was his ability to switch it up and maintain a style which made them a great side - I think that's what Cocu is trying to do Every game I've seen this season has consistency in some areas: Possession based game play as a priority Organised defensive unit with at least one (preferably two) CMs acting as part of it when defending Playing out from the back as a preference to keep opposition stretched Fullbacks provide the width - Crossing comes from them 'Wingers' tuck inside - left footer on the RHS and right footer on the LHS to facilitate Preference to play the ball through the middle Cross from deep - Whip crosses in behind defence Quick passing moves with 2/3 players around the box - Keep passing short where possible I keep saying - The team might not be delivering on it yet but the style he wants us to play is obvious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Evans is a strange case. There's a player in there for sure but in which position I'm not certain. He might make a reasonable right back as someone who can tackle and pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 34 minutes ago, BathRam72 said: Whilst I agree with some of your post. I merely quoted the last bit of your post to get at those who genuinely believe we have a right to instant success (It wasn't a direct hit at you). However I still do believe that he needs to be given time and at least 2 transfer windows or we will still be in the same position next year with a different manager and the same squad who to be quite frank are not good enough. Don’t worry. I know it wasn’t personally aimed at me. Some of our fans believe we have a right to instant success? Still, I am not sure that is really true. I can’t remember anyone thinking we were going to go up automatically in pre-season. Many thought we could end up in the play-offs, which personally I don’t think should ever be viewed as an unreasonable expectation in such a wide open division. If you look at the make up of the division, you have Leeds, WBA and to a lesser extent Fulham largely performing as expected and then three places in the top six open to any team brave enough to show a bit of consistency. Those places are currently occupied by Preston, Brentford and Sheffield Wednesday. In recent months they have been occupied by Forest, QPR, Swansea, Charlton and Bristol City. Do you look at the squads of those eight teams and see an abundance of better players? Do they have more resources? Do they have better managers with greater pedigree? If not, you have to ask why are we not able to compete with those teams already. What concerns me is that the fans asking for patience seem to be forgetting that other teams won’t stand still. Some will go up, some will go down. They will be looking to improve too and sides that come down may be stronger. So there are no guarantees a new and improved side under Cocu will make much of a mark in the division in the future either. If Cocu was getting the absolute maximum out of this current set of players, then it’s a fair argument to say give him time. But personally I just think the lack of attacking intent, overall organisation and consistency coming from the team is evidence enough to say that even two more transfer windows won’t make a difference for Cocu and his fortunes in the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 47 minutes ago, BondJovi said: You pick out Nuno, doing an excellent job but they have been massively helped by the use of a super agent. Players that should have been nowhere near this league. Bilic is doing a great job but he has a much better squad than ours. Pretty sure we were the better team when we played them earlier this season.Bielsa is fantastic, but he is unique. Had Cocu had the squad available now he had at the start of the season I think a lot more fans would be inclined to agree with you, but he doesn't. We have to be patient because the job he is trying to do is far bigger than just the face of the first team. The above managers you mentioned were tasked with promotion, that is not the immediate aim here. You don't always see gradual improvement, sometimes it all just clicks. One player could make all the difference. Would you really throw out all the clubs plans just a couple of weeks before the transfer window opens? Absolute madness. No fan is happy with current performances and results but you have to put it all into context. I doubt anyone at the club is happy with how things for the first team have gone so far but there is more to the club than that. Everyone involved has to take more responsibility. I would be asking serious questions of the senior players. If they can't get motivated by Cocu and now Rooney, I honestly don't think there is much hope for them. If promotion is not the immediate aim, then what is the aim? Surely any long term planning is more logically done from a position of strength and security i.e. guaranteed income from the Premier League. I don’t think you can take a long term approach in the Championship, because one bad season and you could end up in League One and all of those plans have to be recalibrated. If you are telling me Cocu has come in to do a job in the style of Nigel Clough, then I would say it’s a waste of Cocu’s time, his talent and our resources. We should have hired someone in the mould of Steve Cooper at Swansea in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 53 minutes ago, Archied said: So really the only answer is to keep appointing and sacking managers every six months in the hope we drop lucky with one eventually ? Perhaps he is one who doesn’t produce his best in the conditions he has walked into but is great once he gets the players and atmosphere round him he wants, perhaps we could draft in a manager now who thrives in the kinds of situation we have just now but then wilts when asked to produce long term and build ( there’s lots of them around) What makes Cocu so special that he is worth investing all of this time and patience? 6 months?????? , 20 ish games??? Really? Cocu came in with a big reputation and I would imagine he is one of the most well paid managers in the division to boot. Surely after half a season, there should be signs of his X factor? With the three other managers I mentioned, you could see their impact in a matter of weeks. I am not saying that we should appoint a manager every six months. Not at all. I am saying we should appoint managers with a clear understanding of the position we are in. I don’t think we did that this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 41 minutes ago, cheron85 said: We have... I don't understand this position fans are taking about not understanding what Cocu is trying to do - It's very obvious how he wants us to play and he's shown across a number of different formations that he has a method he wants to employ - We just haven't adapted to it yet (partly cos every time we start looking like it might click we lose 2 players!) - I think people get too bogged down in the simple "formation = style" which isn't true - Mourinho at Chelsea (v1) had a basic formation but it was his ability to switch it up and maintain a style which made them a great side - I think that's what Cocu is trying to do Every game I've seen this season has consistency in some areas: Possession based game play as a priority Organised defensive unit with at least one (preferably two) CMs acting as part of it when defending Playing out from the back as a preference to keep opposition stretched Fullbacks provide the width - Crossing comes from them 'Wingers' tuck inside - left footer on the RHS and right footer on the LHS to facilitate Preference to play the ball through the middle Cross from deep - Whip crosses in behind defence Quick passing moves with 2/3 players around the box - Keep passing short where possible I keep saying - The team might not be delivering on it yet but the style he wants us to play is obvious Mourinho has only ever managed elite clubs and elite level players. If Cocu is trying to do something similar, surely that shows he is not taking into account the level he’s managing at... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 50 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said: You mention Bielsa but it's been a 2 year job for him too. Interestingly also, in the week Cocu has first publicly discussed the weak mentality of some of the players in the dressing room, this was Leeds' undoing last season too. If you truly believe that Cocu can turn a midfield of the inexperienced Evans, teenager Knight and winger Holmes into a decent championship midfield, you're massively naive. The squad was bang average before the season started, since we've lost both first choice CB's, an injury-decimated midfield leaving Evans as the only fit natural midfielder and not a single attacker is in any sort of form... I struggle to name anything a manager can do to address such issues. This is where the idea that no other manager could do any better comes from. The team that played on Saturday is bottom-half championship quality with no obvious selections missing that would improve it. I have started to see something you seemingly haven't as well which is Cocu's tactical input on how we play. Rigidity was key last year, positional solidarity and sticking to a defined shape; under Cocu there is far greater emphasis on rotation and I see a few examples of it each game. What I also see, however, is a lack of ability in the players to execute it well enough... Judging Cocu on the side currently available to him only screams short-sightedness to me OK, there is a clear divide. Some fans think the players are the problem. Some fans think the manager is the problem. Personally I think the sign of a good manager is getting the best out of what you have - something that is critical at this level. If Cocu had been doing that and it still wasn’t enough, I am sure everyone would agree on giving him time to change things. However Cocu must have known we are in the Championship and working under tight financial constraints, so surely he has to ask himself - is this the right club for him? It seems to me from what everyone is saying is that Cocu should be managing in the Premier League, not only it being a more natural fit for his philosophy but also because you have the financial flexibility and the luxury to tear things up and start again. Whichever way you look at it, short of him being a Bielsa 2.0, he was the wrong appointment at the wrong time for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 44 minutes ago, Jourdan said: Mourinho has only ever managed elite clubs and elite level players. If Cocu is trying to do something similar, surely that shows he is not taking into account the level he’s managing at... I don't think he's doing the exact same thing - But he is trying to establish a philosophy and way of playing which can be worked through at all levels of the club - Something which previous managers haven't (I loved Lampard but his philosophy seemed to be "go out and play lads" which meant we struggled against solid, organised defences and when we didn't have Mount and Wilson) Oddly - When I've seen the clips of the U23s and U18s they seem to play in much the same style - Most of the attacking is focused down the middle, lots of quick passing at the front, no-one making speculative passes unless they know there's cover in behind etc etc - You could almost argue they brought Cocu in to translate the academy style to the senior team... They also seem to have a pretty fluid set of formations which the players adapt to quite quickly game on game 35 minutes ago, Jourdan said: Whichever way you look at it, short of him being a Bielsa 2.0, he was the wrong appointment at the wrong time for us. I disagree - I think if he's given the time and patience of the chairman/ownership group and the fans we'll see him come good for us He's been given a rough time of it with off-field antics and injuries - Plus he inherited a side which had been held together by 3 absolutely astounding loan signings - I think anyone coming in this season would have struggled and I believe in seeing this through If we drop into the bottom 3 I'll probably change my tune but until then the rebuilding continues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Jourdan said: OK, there is a clear divide. Some fans think the players are the problem. Some fans think the manager is the problem. Personally I think the sign of a good manager is getting the best out of what you have - something that is critical at this level. If Cocu had been doing that and it still wasn’t enough, I am sure everyone would agree on giving him time to change things. However Cocu must have known we are in the Championship and working under tight financial constraints, so surely he has to ask himself - is this the right club for him? It seems to me from what everyone is saying is that Cocu should be managing in the Premier League, not only it being a more natural fit for his philosophy but also because you have the financial flexibility and the luxury to tear things up and start again. Whichever way you look at it, short of him being a Bielsa 2.0, he was the wrong appointment at the wrong time for us. It’s quite poss that mel and cocu sat down and talked at length and where we are now is no massive surprise to either of them ,,, mel may well be speaking the truth when he states that instant promotion is not the goal but rather long term rebuild , don’t forget that apart from being the owner and having far more behind the scenes info than us he is also a Derby / football fan too and as such will know there was a massive hole ripped in the squad with the loss of very high quality loan players and the letting go of players like Bryson and Jono , now I can’t tell you that cocu is/ will be the right man and like some I have a few nagging worries on how things look just now but I do know that we really are not in a position to make snap judgments so short in to his tenure and with so so many other factors in play ,,, teams that lose play off finals or come so close and miss out often struggle the next season let alone having the heart ripped out of the team ,losing the high profile feel good factor manager and all the other stuff going on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeS Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 4 hours ago, cheron85 said: We have... I don't understand this position fans are taking about not understanding what Cocu is trying to do - It's very obvious how he wants us to play and he's shown across a number of different formations that he has a method he wants to employ - We just haven't adapted to it yet (partly cos every time we start looking like it might click we lose 2 players!) - I think people get too bogged down in the simple "formation = style" which isn't true - Mourinho at Chelsea (v1) had a basic formation but it was his ability to switch it up and maintain a style which made them a great side - I think that's what Cocu is trying to do Every game I've seen this season has consistency in some areas: Possession based game play as a priority Organised defensive unit with at least one (preferably two) CMs acting as part of it when defending Playing out from the back as a preference to keep opposition stretched Fullbacks provide the width - Crossing comes from them 'Wingers' tuck inside - left footer on the RHS and right footer on the LHS to facilitate Preference to play the ball through the middle Cross from deep - Whip crosses in behind defence Quick passing moves with 2/3 players around the box - Keep passing short where possible I keep saying - The team might not be delivering on it yet but the style he wants us to play is obvious All correct but it ain't worked from day one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 13 hours ago, MikeS said: All correct but it ain't worked from day one. Sometimes things don't work from day one... They need time to build If you walk on to a building site and there's only foundations in place you don't sack the site foreman cos they can't immediately create a building - If people want an instant building they can buy a bouncy castle or a tent - I'm waiting for Cocu's skyscraper ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireRam Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 20 hours ago, Jourdan said: OK, there is a clear divide. Some fans think the players are the problem. Some fans think the manager is the problem. Personally I think the sign of a good manager is getting the best out of what you have - something that is critical at this level. If Cocu had been doing that and it still wasn’t enough, I am sure everyone would agree on giving him time to change things. However Cocu must have known we are in the Championship and working under tight financial constraints, so surely he has to ask himself - is this the right club for him? It seems to me from what everyone is saying is that Cocu should be managing in the Premier League, not only it being a more natural fit for his philosophy but also because you have the financial flexibility and the luxury to tear things up and start again. Whichever way you look at it, short of him being a Bielsa 2.0, he was the wrong appointment at the wrong time for us. Again, fundamentally disagree. Not to be overly critical but Lampard left us in a state: our 3 best players of last season all return to their parent clubs, Frank leaves guaranteeing they wouldn't return and his faffing over taking the job means his replacement was not left with adequate time to assess the squad and buy replacements where necessary. The conditions, therefore, we tricky for any boss. We could have followed the safe, short term route we have followed for the last 8 managers and tried to appoint someone to turn the mismatched squad into play-off contenders, or, we break the mold and appoint someone with a longer term vision. We ended up choosing the latter knowing we would likely be sacrificing immediate success for long term sustainability and success later down the line. We now know that Cocu has spent more time with the academy than any other Derby boss, he's very clearly fulfilling his promises about a focus on youth progression and transitioning as many academy players into the first team as possible. The u23s are flying with top prospects littered throughout the side but the first team performances are lacking the same creative spark. Tom Lawrence, our main playmaker, only producing 1 in 10 games doesn't help. You want to talk about getting the best out of the existing squad, even Rowett who signed Lawrence couldn't get the best out of him. At what point does it stop being the manager's fault? I'd rather have a stifled first season, used to blood the promising youngsters with an eye to 2 transfer windows to bring in quality additions to the squad than have yet another top 6 finish that ultimately gets us nowhere. Sticking with Cocu gives us time to generate cohesion throughout the club, first team and youth united under one management team with the same principles embodied across. We know he can get teams playing football (PSV highlights), it was just always going to take longer than 20 games to achieve for us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrisoner Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 3 hours ago, cheron85 said: I'm waiting for Cocu's skyscraper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 hour ago, ThePrisoner said: I knew someone would react to that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewbacca Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Just watched Leeds playoff turn around at Elland Road, so depressing. The passion, desire, lung busting effort and emotional expolsion of all the players and staff at full time, we are a complete shell of what we were in terms of morale and being a 'team' really hope Rooney can at least help drive this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irobinson Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 I get time and all that - and know we are in transition but can you honestly say Cocu has improved anything on the first team pitch? Resilience, structure, motivation, skill, know how ? Which players Has he improved over the last twenty odd games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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