The Increase in Racism

[Srg]

12 hours ago, ramit said:

It's not racist.  Those who are offended by it aren't understanding the message, that all races are related to apes.

i am a person with an opinion and i don't need your permission to have one.

Ok, didn't realise you'd suffered at the hands of racists calling you a monkey. I bow to your superior empathy skills to allow you to know how that would make those affected feel.

[ramit]

2 hours ago, Srg said:

Ok, didn't realise you'd suffered at the hands of racists calling you a monkey. I bow to your superior empathy skills to allow you to know how that would make those affected feel.

Listen to yourself.  Because i haven't been called a monkey i don't have the right to like an anti racist poster made by Serie A?  You want to shut me up and shame me because i am not black?  What would you call that, eh?  BTW an ape is not a monkey and FYI i've been called worse.

Lets continue with your faulty logic.  Many white people are offended by that poster on behalf of black people.  What right do they have to feel offended when they've not been called monkeys?  Aren't black people capable enough to be offended without any help from white folks?  Do you see what i am implying here?  Probably not but some will and before you rise up again on your hind legs, heh, let me reiterate that i feel everyone has a right to speak out about anything.

i am quite empathic, i feel for people who suffer, but i make a distinction, i do not take part in outrage based on misunderstandings or putting words in other folk's mouths or meanings into their artwork attempting to address a serious concern with a positive message.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

2 hours ago, ramit said:

Listen to yourself.  Because i haven't been called a monkey i don't have the right to like an anti racist poster made by Serie A?  You want to shut me up and shame me because i am not black?  What would you call that, eh?  BTW an ape is not a monkey and FYI i've been called worse.

Lets continue with your faulty logic.  Many white people are offended by that poster on behalf of black people.  What right do they have to feel offended when they've not been called monkeys?  Aren't black people capable enough to be offended without any help from white folks?  Do you see what i am implying here?  Probably not but some will and before you rise up again on your hind legs, heh, let me reiterate that i feel everyone has a right to speak out about anything.

i am quite empathic, i feel for people who suffer, but i make a distinction, i do not take part in outrage based on misunderstandings or putting words in other folk's mouths or meanings into their artwork attempting to address a serious concern with a positive message.

When black players are coming out and saying they feel like the posters are racist then the posters are racist, they decide that. It's not the black players that have misunderstood the artwork it is the artist that has misunderstood the black players.

[ramit]

23 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

When black players are coming out and saying they feel like the posters are racist then the posters are racist, they decide that. It's not the black players that have misunderstood the artwork it is the artist that has misunderstood the black players.

Feeling something does not make it so and to tar someone or a whole association with the label racist requires something more substantial than mere feelings.  We must not confuse feelings with facts, that is a slippery slope.  If you for instance felt that i meant something with my words that i didn't, you are simply wrong, it is i who decides what i mean, not you or anyone else.  This is where we fundamentally disagree.  i consider each adult responsible for their own feelings, not someone else and to point a finger based on feelings is simply illogical and unjust. 

i am aware of the serious issue of racism shown by some Italian football fans and  do not condone that in any way, however i think that the outrage exhibited against this poster is misplaced.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

21 minutes ago, ramit said:

Feeling something does not make it so and to tar someone or a whole association with the label racist requires something more substantial than mere feelings.  We must not confuse feelings with facts, that is a slippery slope.  If you for instance felt that i meant something with my words that i didn't, you are simply wrong, it is i who decides what i mean, not you or anyone else.  This is where we fundamentally disagree.  i consider each adult responsible for their own feelings, not someone else and to point a finger based on feelings is simply illogical and unjust. 

i am aware of the serious issue of racism shown by some Italian football fans and  do not condone that in any way, however i think that the outrage exhibited against this poster is misplaced.

The fact is that a number of black people considered the artwork to have racist undertones. The fact that the artist did not intend for that to happen is totally irrelevant. As I said, the misunderstanding is on the part of the artist not the people of colour that felt it had racist undertones.

Do I think the artist is racist? No I do not.

Did a number of people think that the art had racist undertones? Yes.

The two things are not mutually exclusive, you can't simply discount the feelings of the offended party by brushing it off as a misunderstanding or the result of some misplaced feelings. Some of these lads have been racially abused from the terraces in Italy for an extended period of time and have seen next to nothing done by the authorities, who then commission some artwork they find offensive to try and help resolve the issue. What are they supposed to think?

[Highgate]

This all comes down to the difference between the intent of the artist and the perception of the art by those viewing the art.

To me what the artist was trying to say was that we are all the same, and we all have the same origins.  That there is just one race really...the human race. At least that's what I think it was, and if that's what the artist intended the message was the very opposite of racism.

Unfortunately he's presented that idea in a manner that was very reminiscent of actual racial taunts and many people seeing the advert felt uncomfortable about it.  Who's wrong and who is right?  It's subjective, the artist legitimately thought of the artwork in one way, while other people saw it an entirely different way.  Both opinions are justifiable in my view, but I'm surprised it got released to be honest, as somebody should have known that many people would not perceive the image in the way the artist was hoping. 

[ramit]

2 hours ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

The fact is that a number of black people considered the artwork to have racist undertones. The fact that the artist did not intend for that to happen is totally irrelevant. As I said, the misunderstanding is on the part of the artist not the people of colour that felt it had racist undertones.

Do I think the artist is racist? No I do not.

Did a number of people think that the art had racist undertones? Yes.

The two things are not mutually exclusive, you can't simply discount the feelings of the offended party by brushing it off as a misunderstanding or the result of some misplaced feelings. Some of these lads have been racially abused from the terraces in Italy for an extended period of time and have seen next to nothing done by the authorities, who then commission some artwork they find offensive to try and help resolve the issue. What are they supposed to think?

That's one way of looking at it and i have made my views known as well, so we can hopefully just agree to disagree.

To better understand some of the underlying reasons for my stance, i will add that i see free speech under attack in modern society, i don't believe that criminalizing views, however offensive is the way to go, in fact i believe it is very dangerous and a real aid to those who wish to establish the global police state.  Political correctness is one tool in that effort.

Is there more racism today than there was 30-40 years ago?  From what i have seen there is far less and that's of course a good thing.  Progress is being made, ignorance is on the decline, information more easily available etc.  The best way to defeat racism is with informative discussion, not hysterics or by becoming overly sensitive to what is essentially idiocy.

[Bubbles]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50842424

Worth a read...

[G-Ram]

Happened again today in spurs v Chelsea. Dont understand how hard it is to go football, enjoy the game, treat everyone with the same respect regardless & not be a dick ?‍♂️

[uttoxram75]

17 minutes ago, G-Ram said:

Happened again today in spurs v Chelsea. Dont understand how hard it is to go football, enjoy the game, treat everyone with the same respect regardless & not be a dick ?‍♂️

Its ironic that its against Chelsea. Back in the 80's they had a loud minority of racist fans, all goose steps, sieg heilers, no black in the Union Jack types. 

Hopefully people like Stormzy and Gary Neville speaking out will help to give people the moral courage to stand up to the racists.

[Mick Brolly]

42 minutes ago, G-Ram said:

Happened again today in spurs v Chelsea. Dont understand how hard it is to go football, enjoy the game, treat everyone with the same respect regardless & not be a dick ?‍♂️

 

16 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

Its ironic that its against Chelsea. Back in the 80's they had a loud minority of racist fans, all goose steps, sieg heilers, no black in the Union Jack types. 

Hopefully people like Stormzy and Gary Neville speaking out will help to give people the moral courage to stand up to the racists.

Allegedly happened maybe the player misheard something like Holmes did.

[Stive Pesley]

16 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

Gary Neville speaking out

What the hell was going on when the presenter had to make it clear that Gary was speaking only for himself?!!

I despair.

 

There is a guy sat behind me in the South Stand who isn't afraid of using the odd racial and homophobic slur. Trouble is - he's not shouting it at the players, we're at the back of the stand and he's just saying it to his mates (loudly - and thinking he's funny). What do you do in that situation? 

[Sith Happens]

19 hours ago, Mick Brolly said:

 

Allegedly happened maybe the player misheard something like Holmes did.

Well maybe holmes didn't mishear. Maybe there was just not proof. 

Of course we have to assume innocent if no proof of guilt. 

He didn’t misread thw twitter posts though.

[Stive Pesley]

For those that haven't seen it

Sorry for the profanity in the tweet - but he's dead right. Duck that corporate line-towing ass-kissing Sky Sports moron

 

 

[cannable]

19 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

For those that haven't seen it

Sorry for the profanity in the tweet - but he's dead right. Duck that corporate line-towing ass-kissing Sky Sports moron

 

 

In fairness to Dave Jones there’s probably a producer screaming down his ear telling him to put out the corporate line 

[G STAR RAM]

44 minutes ago, cannable said:

In fairness to Dave Jones there’s probably a producer screaming down his ear telling him to put out the corporate line 

Nah sod that.

Sod innocent until proven guilty too.

A player has identified 1 person in a crowd of 60,000 making a monkey noise.

And that's it. End of.

Government enquiry required.

[cannable]

35 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Nah sod that.

Sod innocent until proven guilty too.

A player has identified 1 person in a crowd of 60,000 making a monkey noise.

And that's it. End of.

Government enquiry required.

The government Gary Neville’s just called out though… 

I think they’ve threatened one today 

[G STAR RAM]

16 minutes ago, cannable said:

The government Gary Neville’s just called out though… 

I think they’ve threatened one today 

Thank goodness for that.

Hope they throw the full weight of an enquiry behind one idiot supposedly making monkey noises.

Once the government have got that sorted hopefully they can find the time to move on an investigate tens of thousands of people sleeping rough and the hundreds of war veterans being neglected and committing suicide.

[Stive Pesley]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Thank goodness for that.

Hope they throw the full weight of an enquiry behind one idiot supposedly making monkey noises.

Once the government have got that sorted hopefully they can find the time to move on an investigate tens of thousands of people sleeping rough and the hundreds of war veterans being neglected and committing suicide.

Or they could do both?

And it's not one idiot is it? How many matches have their been now with racist incidents? 

Even so - one racist is one too many. Or at least that's my view. You seem to be more slightly more lax. 

[Sith Happens]

8 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

Or they could do both?

And it's not one idiot is it? How many matches have their been now with racist incidents? 

Even so - one racist is one too many. Or at least that's my view. You seem to be more slightly more lax. 

We do need to get it right though, While there has to be protection for players, Spurs have announced that so far nothing is conclusive in this so we really do have to assume innocent until proven guilty.

It is quite possible something has been misheard.

What we should not possibly go down is the route of assuming guilt because someone has been accused which is what happened to Ben Turner. While racism is unacceptable using it as a weapon is also unacceptable (Clattenburg and Chelsea springs to mind).

I do feel the amount of press this gets right now is actually giving the thick headed knumbskulls ideas who perhaps want to look big in front of their friends.

Personally rather than just banning, and sending people on education courses i would make those found guilty sit in a room with people who have been the victims of racial abuse and explain their actions.

Im rambling, i guess what i am saying is we need to take action but not to the point we just assume guilt.