Guest Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 minute ago, SchtivePesley said: That's not 100% true is it? SOME politicians don't want to leave the EU, but plenty of those blocking it have done so because they want to leave the EU but don't like the deal on offer Again - that's how parliament works. Yes that's fair comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 25 minutes ago, Van Gritters said: In your opinion. Historical fact. Read about the Corn Laws, The Tolpuddle Martyrs, The Chartists, the early trade unionists, it was a long hard battle for British people to get any rights or votes. I don't trust the Tories to allow us to keep these rights. I hope I'm wrong but when I see my fellow working class lads siding with the class who fought against any rights for poor people then I genuinely worry about the future of my country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1of4 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 49 minutes ago, Van Gritters said: Can you put a few highlights up please. The opportunity is there for you to read it yourself. You just need to take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritstone Ram Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Just now, uttoxram75 said: Historical fact. Read about the Corn Laws, The Tolpuddle Martyrs, The Chartists, the early trade unionists, it was a long hard battle for British people to get any rights or votes. I don't trust the Tories to allow us to keep these rights. I hope I'm wrong but when I see my fellow working class lads siding with the class who fought against any rights for poor people then I genuinely worry about the future of my country. Like I said times move on. People and parties had a purpose in years gone by but we live in a far more modern world now days. I admire your loyalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritstone Ram Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, 1of4 said: The opportunity is there for you to read it yourself. You just need to take it. It’s not very phone friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritstone Ram Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 4 hours ago, uttoxram75 said: Historical fact. Read about the Corn Laws, The Tolpuddle Martyrs, The Chartists, the early trade unionists, it was a long hard battle for British people to get any rights or votes. I don't trust the Tories to allow us to keep these rights. I hope I'm wrong but when I see my fellow working class lads siding with the class who fought against any rights for poor people then I genuinely worry about the future of my country. So who repealed the Corn Laws and which party did he represent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimRam Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 7 hours ago, uttoxram75 said: Historical fact. Read about the Corn Laws, The Tolpuddle Martyrs, The Chartists, the early trade unionists, it was a long hard battle for British people to get any rights or votes. I don't trust the Tories to allow us to keep these rights. I hope I'm wrong but when I see my fellow working class lads siding with the class who fought against any rights for poor people then I genuinely worry about the future of my country. Never mind, if Corbyn gets in all Union laws brought in by the Conservatives to prevent a repeat of the 1970s, will be repealed. It will be good for the country. #sarcasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 8 hours ago, ariotofmyown said: Surely it's time for another referendum with the choices of... A) Brexit Party style Brexit aka No Deal B) ERG style Brexit aka No Deal, but with some provisions to offer protection to the business interests of those in the ERG C) Johnson's deal Brexit D) May's deal Brexit E) Soft Brexit (customs union and free movement) F) Remain Winner takes all. I think we'd all agree this is the only way forward. Just for clarity, do the 5 leave options get rolled up into one leave number and then the most popular leave option is endorsed? I would also contest option E is a thing at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Angry Ram said: Just for clarity, do the 5 leave options get rolled up into one leave number and then the most popular leave option is endorsed? There should only be one option and that is a vote for change, leave. Then the majority of the electorate make the decision. Don’t vote if you don’t want change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 10 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Politicians have been voting for their own purposes ever since Article 50 was invoked. Leave and Remain were campaigns. How the politicians have chosen to vote since then has absolutely nothing to do with what was on the ballot paper. Remain a member or Leave the EU were the choices, I'll await someone explaining how people didnt know what they were voting on. I will accept that neither side knew what future their vote would lead to, I will not accept that people didnt know what they were voting on. And after 3 years its still only Remainers that you hear using that narrative. Strictly, there are a few talking heads starting to pop up on the various evening news items who say "well i voted leave but now i don't think we should". There was on in a chip shop in scotland the other day. Are the numbers significant? Don't know at all but that is factual evidence that there is at least one or two people who have not fixed views. Why would their view change apart from the accumulation of some more knowledge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 9 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Yep, it really isnt that hard to understand. Everyone knew they were voting to no longer be a member of the European Union. Still with me? They did not know if revoking membership would be done with an agreement or without an agreement. It was impossible to know this at the time. Still not hard to follow up to this point surely? Even if we leave without a deal, does not mean a future deal will not be reached, we all know it's in the best interest of both parties and no deal has probably only been left on the table as an incentive to try and overturn the result. So is it fair to say that every single person who tried to say anything about what the future will bring (whether that's Farage, Davis or any of the other politicians who were selling the leave option) absolutely made everything up, as it was impossible to know anything about what the future would look like? Do you see the absurdity of supporting a decision with zero knowledge of what will happen when you do it? Don't you think all the pro Brexit people had a duty, a responsibility to have considered it at least a little bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC27 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 11 hours ago, GboroRam said: So you're fine with Brexit leading to large companies not investing in the UK but not taxing income over £1m an extra 5%, because you think it will result in the same thing? If we get to limit the foreigners it's fine but trying to improve the lives of the people at the bottom of the pile it isn't. I was originally skeptic of Brexit I thought we’d be more stable inside the EU however done well we could actually make ourselves very attractive to large and foreign companies that want access to both the EU, Britain and the rest of the world. Under Johnson’s current deal that would be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 9 hours ago, uttoxram75 said: People have only had the opportunity because of labour policies of education, NHS, affordable housing and the vote. Before all those there were no opportunities for ordinary people. The Tories did not give us any of those, our ancestors had to fight for them, risking their lives, deportation, imprisonment and unbelievable hardship. I totally accept that a lot of great things have happened under a Labour government. However, all I have to go on in my lifetime is Labour always leaving the economy in a worse state than they find it. JC in particular is just as much in the pockets of the Union fat cat bosses as the Tories are in the pockets of big business. Neither is healthy. I've tended to vote Lib Dem in the past but feel I can't this time with them pledging to unilaterally cancel Brexit. Not that it will really matter anyway, as I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC27 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 12 hours ago, 1967Ram said: You are aware that the National Debt has increased every year since 2005 aren't you? https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_debt_analysis The worldwide financial crash in 2008 caused the recession not Labour. Since 2011 the UK National Debt has risen from £1 trillion to £1.8 trillion (as of March this year). But this doesn’t tell the full picture does it? This borrowing has been sustainable and hasn’t led to consecutive quarters of a fall in GDP, a labour government pledging to borrow a further £150billion to improve the NHS along with other pledges formed on borrowing means we will end up with are GDP falling quarter after quarter and straight into a recession Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Angry Ram said: Just for clarity, do the 5 leave options get rolled up into one leave number and then the most popular leave option is endorsed? I would also contest option E is a thing at this point. Don't be daft, each one has an equal chance of winning and losing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Van der MoodHoover said: Strictly, there are a few talking heads starting to pop up on the various evening news items who say "well i voted leave but now i don't think we should". There was on in a chip shop in scotland the other day. Are the numbers significant? Don't know at all but that is factual evidence that there is at least one or two people who have not fixed views. Why would their view change apart from the accumulation of some more knowledge? Don't forgot that most people who have died in the last 3 half years would mostly vote leave vs the people who have turned 18 who would have voted remain. I would assume there were more turning 18 than deaths too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 33 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Don't be daft, each one has an equal chance of winning and losing! Although you are splitting the leave vote 5 ways whilst giving all remainers just 1 coption How about we change the vote to; 1. Leave 2. Remain (as are) 3. Remain (only if we can reform the EU) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 27 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Don't forgot that most people who have died in the last 3 half years would mostly vote leave vs the people who have turned 18 who would have voted remain. I would assume there were more turning 18 than deaths too. Well, that indeed may shift the proportion, but I was attempting to speak to GStars point challenging that leavers knew what they were asking for and only Remain voting folk were insinuating that Leave voting folk did not understand. Which I thought was a fair challenge for G Star Ram to make. I was merely offering some evidence that points to some examples of individuals who had voted leave but were now changing their mind. ? even then I don't have any examples of Leave voters stating explicitly that they didn't realise exactly what Leave meant in practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 16 minutes ago, maxjam said: Although you are splitting the leave vote 5 ways whilst giving all remainers just 1 coption How about we change the vote to; 1. Leave - No Deal / With a Deal / Soft / Hard? - We'd end up back where we are now. 2. Remain (as are) 3. Remain (only if we can reform the EU) - Been there, tried that. EU said Nein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Van Wolfie said: Yeah, was just making the point of splitting the remain vote rather than the leave vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.