The Politics Thread 2019

[GboroRam]

22 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Although you are splitting the leave vote 5 ways whilst giving all remainers just 1 coption 

How about we change the vote to;

1.  Leave

2.  Remain (as are)

3.  Remain (only if we can reform the EU)

4. Let's go to the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for this all to blow over.

 

[maxjam]

3 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

 

You get a like purely for the Sean of the Dead reference ?

[McRamFan]

So the Tories take away the nursing bursaries, and then decide to bring in staff from abroad.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50338073

I'm sure they will flock here, especially to treat some old gammon who insists on being treated by english person, and would probably say 'I voted for you to leave my country'.

[Spanish]

Much as though I hate the decision to leave I can see only one reason to revisit it; to include the disenfranchised UK passport holders who currently reside in Europe.

If not then the only reason to revisit it should be to clear the log jam in parliament if the election doesn't achieve this.  

1. leave by x date whether there is a deal or not
2. take Boris's deal
3. go back and renegotiate a new deal that has the majority support of parliament.

the thing is what is the point of MPs if they need the explicit approval of the electorate to make decisions. 

[G STAR RAM]

2 hours ago, GboroRam said:

So is it fair to say that every single person who tried to say anything about what the future will bring (whether that's Farage, Davis or any of the other politicians who were selling the leave option) absolutely made everything up, as it was impossible to know anything about what the future would look like?

Do you see the absurdity of supporting a decision with zero knowledge of what will happen when you do it?

Don't you think all the pro Brexit people had a duty, a responsibility to have considered it at least a little bit?

If projections, forecasts or predicted scenarios are classed as 'made everything up' then yes.

Things were considered and different scenarios discussed throughout the campaign.

Would you advise a woman to stay in an abusive relationship because she would not know how any future relationships may turn out? 

[G STAR RAM]

2 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Strictly, there are a few talking heads starting to pop up on the various evening news items who say "well i voted leave but now i don't think we should". There was on in a chip shop in scotland the other day. Are the numbers significant? Don't know at all but that is factual evidence that there is at least one or two people who have not fixed views. Why would their view change apart from the accumulation of some more knowledge?

Do you think these might be counter balanced by people who voted Remain but accept that if the vote is overturned that democracy in this country will have been trashed for a generation to come?

[Angry Ram]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

Don't be daft, each one has an equal chance of winning and losing!

Ridiculous, you cant have 5 leave options and one remain. No point in having the vote.

 

By the way.. I think you will find that 'IF' there ever was a second referendum with multiple leave options, the roll up method is exactly how it will work. So maybe not so daft.

[Angry Ram]

26 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

So the Tories take away the nursing bursaries, and then decide to bring in staff from abroad.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50338073

I'm sure they will flock here, especially to treat some old gammon who insists on being treated by english person, and would probably say 'I voted for you to leave my country'.

Maybe sometimes it's better not to post.. I've already proved that skilled people are flocking here at higher levels since 2009. 

[Angry Ram]

12 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Here, here. I was in London today and the place is crawling with homeless people. Why don't they just get a job! They all think the world owes them a living. Thank god these years of Tory austerity have sent so many people onto the streets, rather than them all living the life of luxury at the expense of us taxpayers.

You should have popped in for a coffee.

The homeless in London are an issue and I do some work with a charity called SCT bassed in Shoreditch. Any amount of homeless is an issue. However London's problems are not as bad as some other major capital cities. I have no stats to prove anything but simply walking around Paris is a nightmare. New York, San Fran etc etc.

[Stive Pesley]

3 hours ago, Angry Ram said:

Just for clarity, do the 5 leave options get rolled up into one leave number and then the most popular leave option is endorsed?

I would also contest option E is a thing at this point.

This raises an interesting point - 65 million people in the UK and 650 MPs, so 0.1% of the population trying to decide on how to implement Brexit

Do you think that if you took any sample of 650 people and asked them to agree between them what they think Leave should mean - that they would fare any better?

[GboroRam]

43 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

If projections, forecasts or predicted scenarios are classed as 'made everything up' then yes.

Things were considered and different scenarios discussed throughout the campaign.

Would you advise a woman to stay in an abusive relationship because she would not know how any future relationships may turn out? 

By dismissing the views of the majority of people forecasting anything, trashes all analysis. Of course the future isn't known, but we can make some predictions. The leave supporters dismissed everything that said that leaving will cause damage to the economy because it didn't meet their needs at the time. 

Things weren't considered by the leave supporters - they were dismissed as "project fear" or "experts" who know nothing.

I wouldn't advise a woman to shoot herself in the head even if she were in an abusive relationship. By saying you don't know the future, you can't say if shooting yourself in the head will be good or bad is the kind of disingenuous argument used by Brexit supporters. Almost all the analysis shows Brexit to be a harmful, dangerous choice. We're the laughing stock of Europe yet still believe we're doing a good thing.

[Wolfie]

28 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

This raises an interesting point - 65 million people in the UK and 650 MPs, so 0.1% of the population trying to decide on how to implement Brexit

Do you think that if you took any sample of 650 people and asked them to agree between them what they think Leave should mean - that they would fare any better?

Hell, you could ask 65, 650, 650,000 or all 65 million and there wouldn't be a consensus.

Whatever actually gets done is going to pee off an awful lot of people - for a long time.

[WhiteHorseRam]

18 hours ago, GboroRam said:

So we can go back to the dream team of miliband and balls, out right-winging the tories? 

Or the Blair days of bombing civilians? 

Or rather you prefer a carbon copy of Boris, with identical policies? 

I'll vote for the party pledging to increase taxes for the rich to pay for public services. Which apparently is the same as Stalin shooting hundreds of people. 

You have to be in Govt to change things and do stuff.

Corbyn has turned the Labour Party into a personality cult, a 'movement', not a Govt in waiting. 500,000 are brain-washed while loads of centrist Labour folks have been pushed out. They, with the 'I have voted Labour all my life' muscle memory people just won't be enough.

If a right-wing party chanted the leader's name, it would be viewed chilling and horrifying, but Corbyn's Momentum mob do it and its' viewed as kind of groovy.

His decision making is always late - if he had announced he wanted a re-negotiated deal and a confirmatory ref a year ago, that would have been significant. Doing it now - no impact.

So to with what looks like a clear-out due to the anti-Semitism issue - too late.

[Angry Ram]

34 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

This raises an interesting point - 65 million people in the UK and 650 MPs, so 0.1% of the population trying to decide on how to implement Brexit

Do you think that if you took any sample of 650 people and asked them to agree between them what they think Leave should mean - that they would fare any better?

No, not really. Depends where those 650 people are. London, Scotland, Workington? If we also asked 650 Remainers, what remain should mean, do you think you would get a harmony?

Leave should mean leave, I assume you mean on what terms.

[WhiteHorseRam]

9 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

Hell, you could ask 65, 650, 650,000 or all 65 million and there wouldn't be a consensus.

Whatever actually gets done is going to pee off an awful lot of people - for a long time.

Some Tory MPs don't even have a personal consensus …. vote against Theresa's deal three times … but are then 'furious' when Parliament does the same ….. even when the Boris deal is her's with some chocolate sprinkles .?

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Angry Ram said:

You should have popped in for a coffee.

The homeless in London are an issue and I do some work with a charity called SCT bassed in Shoreditch. Any amount of homeless is an issue. However London's problems are not as bad as some other major capital cities. I have no stats to prove anything but simply walking around Paris is a nightmare. New York, San Fran etc etc.

True it's not as bad as those places, but it seems to have got worse over the last few years. I'm sure I've seen stats to back that up, but probably fake news.

Fair play in helping out though, more kind than angry. You bleeding heart liberal!

[Stive Pesley]

3 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

Hell, you could ask 65, 650, 650,000 or all 65 million and there wouldn't be a consensus.

So people's frustrations with the parliamentary process is perhaps misguided?

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Angry Ram said:

Ridiculous, you cant have 5 leave options and one remain. No point in having the vote.

 

By the way.. I think you will find that 'IF' there ever was a second referendum with multiple leave options, the roll up method is exactly how it will work. So maybe not so daft.

I wasn't been entirely serious. But it would force the leave contingent to make their minds up and get behind one option.

[Wolfie]

10 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

So people's frustrations with the parliamentary process is perhaps misguided?

To an extent. However, the damage is done when it seems that MP's from all sides put their own internal party politics above what is required by the big picture needs of the country. They're all guilty of that.

[Van der MoodHoover]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Do you think these might be counter balanced by people who voted Remain but accept that if the vote is overturned that democracy in this country will have been trashed for a generation to come?

There are certainly examples of those - aren't they the Tory 21 mps booted out for a start......I've lost track of all the political shenanigans, but I'm sure Dominic Grieve for example says he was a remainer and voted remain but he is only completely anti a "no deal" brexit?

Or is that not quite the point you were making?