The Politics Thread 2019

[maxjam]

6 minutes ago, Redshaw_Ram said:

Brexiteers unable to outline demonstrable benefits to Brexit when asked.

Could anyone have seen this coming?

Yep because the question has been asked 100 times before, we're just sick of answering it time and again.

If you really want to learn about Brexit benefits just google them. Here's a pretty balanced one about a no deal Brexit to get you started. 

https://www.politico.eu/article/the-case-for-no-deal-brexit/

 

 

[G STAR RAM]

6 minutes ago, Redshaw_Ram said:

Brexiteers unable to outline demonstrable benefits to Brexit when asked.

Could anyone have seen this coming?

And if we do post some potential benefits what will you do?

Call us thick, xenophobic, racists.

Now that we can see coming.

[GboroRam]

3 hours ago, Van Gritters said:

Brexit - Remain 

Is there a Labour one?

New Labour 

[ramit]

The ever increasing automation of today's workplaces is being discussed locally lately, as well as worldwide i should imagine.  The fact being, the common worker is becoming redundant, as fast evolving technological machinery is set to efficiently replace them.  This has been in the pipeline for decades so it shouldn't surprise anyone really, even though it seems to.

i worked at an established candy makers factory about 30 years ago, when i first got a whiff of what was to come.  A meeting of employees was held where staff were congratulated on increased productivity and happily informed by a white shirted office type, who had never bothered to waste words on us before, that if we kept up that pace, which he had every confidence is us doing, we would soon be replaced by wonderful new machinery.  Being, as i was apparently the sole Ram among a flock of sheep i was the only one to loudly exclaim, are you ******* joking us ****? (or words to that affect)  He was not and before he could get around to it, i fired myself, also in colourful language.  A few days later, out of curiosity i visited my former union to tell them what i had witnessed and asking what they thought of it.  The union representative shrugged his shoulders and said that while he empathized with my plight and understood why i had stormed out, there was nothing for them to do about it, as it was inevitable progress, but he assured me there were still plenty of low paying jobs available where automation wouldn't kick in for oh at least another twenty years.

A couple of days ago i was listening to discussions on the radio about automation and it's threats to the job market and a man from a structure called something like The Confederacy of Unions announced that while it was unavoidable that automated machinery take over jobs at an ever increasing rate, the unions would be adamant in their demands that this evolution not be planned solely from the perspective of increasing company profits, that people should also be considered.  Yeah, pull the other one.  This is the reality of capitalism, profit is king and this situation was indeed inevitable.  He either knows this and is cynically lying through his teeth or he is a slobbering imbecile, i lean towards the former.  What passes for the left is simply controlled opposition, is what i have come to understand, two sides of the same money coin.  Voting doesn't change a thing, when our only choices are variously dressed representations of capitalism.

 

 

[ariotofmyown]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Read back through the thread, they have been covered on numerous occasions, just to be ignored and then the question asked again a few pages later.

Who does this @Redshaw_Ram think he is, coming on here asking for the benefits of Brexit? As @G STAR RAMsays, this has been "covered" numerous times already. I think the most popular answer is that it might not be as bad as what the EU might become in 30 years time, or it might be that we won't have to sign up to the EU army if it ever exists. You can't mention the 350 million per week that we can spend on the NHS as that is just "going on about that bus thing" and that was, like, ages ago.

I guess a genuine positive is that we are surely at the last knockings of the 'Conservative' party. All the normalish, decent ones have left and their core support are all old and dying. If they win this next election, then the following Brexit chaos should see them off for good.

What we definitely don't need though is a 2nd referendum. There is no way at all that a far more informed electorate would reverse their ignorant/protest vote of 3.5 years ago. It would be an easy win for Leave so a total waste of time and effort. That is why the fundamentalist Brexiteers don't want one. It is also undemocratic to allow people to change their mind. Only traitors want to Remain.

Of course, we'll never actually Leave. Either not at all, or in any meaningful way.

[G STAR RAM]

4 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Who does this @Redshaw_Ram think he is, coming on here asking for the benefits of Brexit? As @G STAR RAMsays, this has been "covered" numerous times already. I think the most popular answer is that it might not be as bad as what the EU might become in 30 years time, or it might be that we won't have to sign up to the EU army if it ever exists. You can't mention the 350 million per week that we can spend on the NHS as that is just "going on about that bus thing" and that was, like, ages ago.

I guess a genuine positive is that we are surely at the last knockings of the 'Conservative' party. All the normalish, decent ones have left and their core support are all old and dying. If they win this next election, then the following Brexit chaos should see them off for good.

What we definitely don't need though is a 2nd referendum. There is no way at all that a far more informed electorate would reverse their ignorant/protest vote of 3.5 years ago. It would be an easy win for Leave so a total waste of time and effort. That is why the fundamentalist Brexiteers don't want one. It is also undemocratic to allow people to change their mind. Only traitors want to Remain.

Of course, we'll never actually Leave. Either not at all, or in any meaningful way.

You forgot to get something about xenophobic or racist in there, otherwise it was a good try.

I dont think anyone has ever argued against people changing their minds, just that it is undemocratic to overturn the result of a vote without first implementing the outcome of the first vote.

[Norman]

17 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Who does this @Redshaw_Ram think he is, coming on here asking for the benefits of Brexit? As @G STAR RAMsays, this has been "covered" numerous times already. I think the most popular answer is that it might not be as bad as what the EU might become in 30 years time, or it might be that we won't have to sign up to the EU army if it ever exists. You can't mention the 350 million per week that we can spend on the NHS as that is just "going on about that bus thing" and that was, like, ages ago.

I guess a genuine positive is that we are surely at the last knockings of the 'Conservative' party. All the normalish, decent ones have left and their core support are all old and dying. If they win this next election, then the following Brexit chaos should see them off for good.

What we definitely don't need though is a 2nd referendum. There is no way at all that a far more informed electorate would reverse their ignorant/protest vote of 3.5 years ago. It would be an easy win for Leave so a total waste of time and effort. That is why the fundamentalist Brexiteers don't want one. It is also undemocratic to allow people to change their mind. Only traitors want to Remain.

Of course, we'll never actually Leave. Either not at all, or in any meaningful way.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

36 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Who does this @Redshaw_Ram think he is, coming on here asking for the benefits of Brexit? As @G STAR RAMsays, this has been "covered" numerous times already. I think the most popular answer is that it might not be as bad as what the EU might become in 30 years time, or it might be that we won't have to sign up to the EU army if it ever exists. You can't mention the 350 million per week that we can spend on the NHS as that is just "going on about that bus thing" and that was, like, ages ago.

I guess a genuine positive is that we are surely at the last knockings of the 'Conservative' party. All the normalish, decent ones have left and their core support are all old and dying. If they win this next election, then the following Brexit chaos should see them off for good.

What we definitely don't need though is a 2nd referendum. There is no way at all that a far more informed electorate would reverse their ignorant/protest vote of 3.5 years ago. It would be an easy win for Leave so a total waste of time and effort. That is why the fundamentalist Brexiteers don't want one. It is also undemocratic to allow people to change their mind. Only traitors want to Remain.

Of course, we'll never actually Leave. Either not at all, or in any meaningful way.

 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

On ‎08‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 10:32, McRamFan said:

So the Tories take away the nursing bursaries, and then decide to bring in staff from abroad.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50338073

I'm sure they will flock here, especially to treat some old gammon who insists on being treated by english person, and would probably say 'I voted for you to leave my country'.

My aunt works in a nursing home . Two of the women working there are West Indian.  The old people there treat them wonderfully and are very grateful just to have someone to talk too.  Some have vascular dementia and easily upset often asking when there mum will be coming to get them or thinking i'm a grandson .  The only problem they ever have is sometimes the old boys don't feel comfortable that a young girl should be dressing them or bathing them .  They find it a bit embarrassing . Perhaps think a bit harder next time

Did find this from the 90's though regarding an ardent remainer

LABOUR MP Diane Abbott yesterday defended herself against charges of racism after criticising the appointment of ``blonde, blue-eyed'' Finnish nurses at her local hospital.

The black MP suggested the nurses at Homerton Hospital, Hackney, might be unfit to work in the multicultural east London borough.

Writing in her local paper, the Hackney Gazette, the MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington said: ``I am sure that these young women are charming. But they are basically here to improve their English and are unlikely to give the British health service a lifetime's commitment

Glass houses and all that .

[Angry Ram]

8 hours ago, ramit said:

The ever increasing automation of today's workplaces is being discussed locally lately, as well as worldwide i should imagine.  The fact being, the common worker is becoming redundant, as fast evolving technological machinery is set to efficiently replace them.  This has been in the pipeline for decades so it shouldn't surprise anyone really, even though it seems to.

i worked at an established candy makers factory about 30 years ago, when i first got a whiff of what was to come.  A meeting of employees was held where staff were congratulated on increased productivity and happily informed by a white shirted office type, who had never bothered to waste words on us before, that if we kept up that pace, which he had every confidence is us doing, we would soon be replaced by wonderful new machinery.  Being, as i was apparently the sole Ram among a flock of sheep i was the only one to loudly exclaim, are you ******* joking us ****? (or words to that affect)  He was not and before he could get around to it, i fired myself, also in colourful language.  A few days later, out of curiosity i visited my former union to tell them what i had witnessed and asking what they thought of it.  The union representative shrugged his shoulders and said that while he empathized with my plight and understood why i had stormed out, there was nothing for them to do about it, as it was inevitable progress, but he assured me there were still plenty of low paying jobs available where automation wouldn't kick in for oh at least another twenty years.

A couple of days ago i was listening to discussions on the radio about automation and it's threats to the job market and a man from a structure called something like The Confederacy of Unions announced that while it was unavoidable that automated machinery take over jobs at an ever increasing rate, the unions would be adamant in their demands that this evolution not be planned solely from the perspective of increasing company profits, that people should also be considered.  Yeah, pull the other one.  This is the reality of capitalism, profit is king and this situation was indeed inevitable.  He either knows this and is cynically lying through his teeth or he is a slobbering imbecile, i lean towards the former.  What passes for the left is simply controlled opposition, is what i have come to understand, two sides of the same money coin.  Voting doesn't change a thing, when our only choices are variously dressed representations of capitalism.

 

 

Whilst I agree automation is a huge issue in manufacturing etc, is it capitalism or just progress. Whilst it could be argued that both go hand in hand, where would we be without it? Would you not have progress? The world and society has to change to meet the progression surely?

[Angry Ram]

7 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I really don’t know where to start with that.. Firstly congratulations, 1000 words and I don’t agree with a single one of them. Don’t think anyone has ever managed that before.

G Star is right, we’ve done this a thousand times, no answer we can give will satisfy the remainers. Fair enough but the arrogance of remainers does my swede in when they insist they know exactly why 17.4 million people voted.

Democracy and allowing people to change their minds.. Hmmm. Maybe I won’t like the result of the GE? Maybe we will have 4 years of apocalyptic government by the hard left. Maybe you lot didn’t know what you were voting for? I know one thing, I will do the honourable thing and suck it up until I get a chance to change things in 4 years time. I will concede that this is how democracy works and that sometimes I won’t get things my way. 

You easily brush away genuine leaver concerns about a federal Europe, yet cannot guarantee what will happen in the future.. 

I am still sure the bus never said we will give 350mil to the NHS.

[ariotofmyown]

8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

You forgot to get something about xenophobic or racist in there, otherwise it was a good try.

I dont think anyone has ever argued against people changing their minds, just that it is undemocratic to overturn the result of a vote without first implementing the outcome of the first vote.

Even if it's impossible?

[GboroRam]

21 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

7 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

 I am still sure the bus never said we will give 350mil to the NHS.

Do you think that nobody voted for Brexit to give that money to the NHS? 

[ariotofmyown]

20 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

7 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I really don’t know where to start with that.. Firstly congratulations, 1000 words and I don’t agree with a single one of them. Don’t think anyone has ever managed that before.

G Star is right, we’ve done this a thousand times, no answer we can give will satisfy the remainers. Fair enough but the arrogance of remainers does my swede in when they insist they know exactly why 17.4 million people voted.

Democracy and allowing people to change their minds.. Hmmm. Maybe I won’t like the result of the GE? Maybe we will have 4 years of apocalyptic government by the hard left. Maybe you lot didn’t know what you were voting for? I know one thing, I will do the honourable thing and suck it up until I get a chance to change things in 4 years time. I will concede that this is how democracy works and that sometimes I won’t get things my way. 

You easily brush away genuine leaver concerns about a federal Europe, yet cannot guarantee what will happen in the future.. 

I am still sure the bus never said we will give 350mil to the NHS.

I think you give Leave voters, and all voters in general, too much credit. The likes of you and G Star are clearly engaged and have valid reasons for voting to Leave. I think they are wrong at that is fine.

There are also vast swathes of the electorate who weren't particularly engaged and these are the people who voted for something with little idea what it meant.

You may question the semantics of the bus "lie", but plenty of people would have thought "that money should be spent on the NHS, I'm voting Leave", without any been presented any critical debate. Why would right wing capitalists like Johnson and Farage be suddenly so pro-NHS?

Brexit was all about giving simple messages to complex problems, Farage's terrorist poster to scare people into voting Leave for example. And Cameron didn't bother making a case for Remain.

I think Remain would win quite easily with a 2nd referendum now as people would have seen how complex and impossible getting any sort of deal is. Plus, they won't trust Tories to get a deal that helps normal people as all the moderates have left the sinking ship.

We are going to be left with a Remain/Referendum majority government again after the election and the sorry mess will continue.

[Gone]

9 hours ago, ramit said:

The ever increasing automation of today's workplaces is being discussed locally lately, as well as worldwide i should imagine.  The fact being, the common worker is becoming redundant, as fast evolving technological machinery is set to efficiently replace them.  This has been in the pipeline for decades so it shouldn't surprise anyone really, even though it seems to.

i worked at an established candy makers factory about 30 years ago, when i first got a whiff of what was to come.  A meeting of employees was held where staff were congratulated on increased productivity and happily informed by a white shirted office type, who had never bothered to waste words on us before, that if we kept up that pace, which he had every confidence is us doing, we would soon be replaced by wonderful new machinery.  Being, as i was apparently the sole Ram among a flock of sheep i was the only one to loudly exclaim, are you ******* joking us ****? (or words to that affect)  He was not and before he could get around to it, i fired myself, also in colourful language.  A few days later, out of curiosity i visited my former union to tell them what i had witnessed and asking what they thought of it.  The union representative shrugged his shoulders and said that while he empathized with my plight and understood why i had stormed out, there was nothing for them to do about it, as it was inevitable progress, but he assured me there were still plenty of low paying jobs available where automation wouldn't kick in for oh at least another twenty years.

A couple of days ago i was listening to discussions on the radio about automation and it's threats to the job market and a man from a structure called something like The Confederacy of Unions announced that while it was unavoidable that automated machinery take over jobs at an ever increasing rate, the unions would be adamant in their demands that this evolution not be planned solely from the perspective of increasing company profits, that people should also be considered.  Yeah, pull the other one.  This is the reality of capitalism, profit is king and this situation was indeed inevitable.  He either knows this and is cynically lying through his teeth or he is a slobbering imbecile, i lean towards the former.  What passes for the left is simply controlled opposition, is what i have come to understand, two sides of the same money coin.  Voting doesn't change a thing, when our only choices are variously dressed representations of capitalism.

 

 

Become and automation engineer, you can write your own cheque they are like rocking horse poo 

[Angry Ram]

7 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Do you think that nobody voted for Brexit to give that money to the NHS? 

Who said we are not giving money to the NHS? Surely it is a simple concept that the money we save paying the EU can be redirected to causes in the UK. NHS included. The cheque will just come from a different place. Maybe people who could not get EU funding, might qualify for UK funding?

If we leave on a hard Brexit the government have already promised to maintain the EU payments to those organisations that already receive them. At least until their normal lifecycle ends and then they will be reassessed as they would have been under EU funding rules.

[Angry Ram]

7 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I think you give Leave voters, and all voters in general, too much credit. The likes of you and G Star are clearly engaged and have valid reasons for voting to Leave. I think they are wrong at that is fine.

There are also vast swathes of the electorate who weren't particularly engaged and these are the people who voted for something with little idea what it meant.

You may question the semantics of the bus "lie", but plenty of people would have thought "that money should be spent on the NHS, I'm voting Leave", without any been presented any critical debate. Why would right wing capitalists like Johnson and Farage be suddenly so pro-NHS?

Brexit was all about giving simple messages to complex problems, Farage's terrorist poster to scare people into voting Leave for example. And Cameron didn't bother making a case for Remain.

I think Remain would win quite easily with a 2nd referendum now as people would have seen how complex and impossible getting any sort of deal is. Plus, they won't trust Tories to get a deal that helps normal people as all the moderates have left the sinking ship.

We are going to be left with a Remain/Referendum majority government again after the election and the sorry mess will continue.

That’s first paragraph is very elitist of you.. Are you sure you are not a Tory? ? I like you more now ?

If we are left with a Remain/Referendum majority government, I fear for things. We will enter into a period of real change for our democracy.. Maybe that is a good thing and we rip up hundreds of years as to what democracy looks like.  I fear what will come out the other end though.. How would I deal with your scenario? I really don’t know.. Half of me says that it’s outrageous and I ( normal Jo average) would want to take to the streets and tear the House of Parliament down. Might even want to burn a few at the stake. The other half of me will concede that this is democracy (via a GE) in operation and I would struggle with my initial thought.. I may well go with my initial thought and just cut out the burning at the stake for Soubry and the likes as a compromise.. 

Whatever happens, the division will be here for decades.. Also just another aside and the preconceptions that all young people would vote to remain.. A reality check is needed there. The brainwashed Uni idiots, maybe but the rest? Hmm wake up call coming.

[maxjam]

23 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I think you give Leave voters, and all voters in general, too much credit. The likes of you and G Star are clearly engaged and have valid reasons for voting to Leave. I think they are wrong at that is fine.

There are also vast swathes of the electorate who weren't particularly engaged and these are the people who voted for something with little idea what it meant.

The same can be applied to every general election;  people that only ever vote for one party, the ideological young, the bitter old, etc, etc.

Maybe we just shouldn't let 'the people' vote at all, certainly not until they have all proven their cognative thinking skills.

 

[G STAR RAM]

52 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Even if it's impossible?

You wouldnt hold a Referendum on something that was impossible.

[Norman]

46 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I think you give Leave voters, and all voters in general, too much credit. The likes of you and G Star are clearly engaged and have valid reasons for voting to Leave. I think they are wrong at that is fine.

There are also vast swathes of the electorate who weren't particularly engaged and these are the people who voted for something with little idea what it meant.

You may question the semantics of the bus "lie", but plenty of people would have thought "that money should be spent on the NHS, I'm voting Leave", without any been presented any critical debate. Why would right wing capitalists like Johnson and Farage be suddenly so pro-NHS?

Brexit was all about giving simple messages to complex problems, Farage's terrorist poster to scare people into voting Leave for example. And Cameron didn't bother making a case for Remain.

I think Remain would win quite easily with a 2nd referendum now as people would have seen how complex and impossible getting any sort of deal is. Plus, they won't trust Tories to get a deal that helps normal people as all the moderates have left the sinking ship.

We are going to be left with a Remain/Referendum majority government again after the election and the sorry mess will continue.

Remain voters were led to believe there would be an instant emergency budget. A deep recession. Lack of petrol, medicines. 

We wouldn't be able to fly. Long delays at the borders. Price of petrol would skyrocket. Energy prices would skyrocket. EU citizens would be kicked out. 

When in fact, the Withdrawal Agreement stated there would be a 2 year negotiation period. 

The bus stated 350 million. It turned out to be 250 million. 

The delays are currently costing us 750 million a month. 

Also, remainers - you state we voted for something that we don't know will work. 

I'm pretty sure most of you will vote Labour. Has Corbyn's economics been proven to work?  Because I would hate for you to vote for something you hadn't researched properly. Or though deeply about. Or aren't clever enough to understand. 

Or just listened to glib soundbites about a better NHS. And workers rights. Especially with an open door migration policy. 

Because that would be hypocritical.