GboroRam Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 50 minutes ago, Angry Ram said: Who said we are not giving money to the NHS? Surely it is a simple concept that the money we save paying the EU can be redirected to causes in the UK. NHS included. The cheque will just come from a different place. Maybe people who could not get EU funding, might qualify for UK funding? If we leave on a hard Brexit the government have already promised to maintain the EU payments to those organisations that already receive them. At least until their normal lifecycle ends and then they will be reassessed as they would have been under EU funding rules. Why pay your credit card? Let's use that money to go shopping instead. Great idea, but the extra cost of paying through small claims court or having a CCJ eats up the monthly balance, so you actually don't have the money to go shopping at all. In fact you're worse off. Was a great soundbite but in actual fact it was a big fat lie. Just like the bus. Don't hide behind semantics that the bus just said "why don't we", it never said we will. People were taken in by the message that the NHS is getting extra cash. Brexiters are now saying that the costs are worth it for "sovereignty". Nobody said brexit will cost the central purse money, which means less for public services like the NHS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 58 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: I think you give Leave voters, and all voters in general, too much credit. The likes of you and G Star are clearly engaged and have valid reasons for voting to Leave. I think they are wrong at that is fine. There are also vast swathes of the electorate who weren't particularly engaged and these are the people who voted for something with little idea what it meant. And what makes you think that this affected the vote at all? How do you know that Leave voters were more uneducated than Remain voters? How many Remain voters know about the Lisbon Treaty? The plans for a European Army? Expansion plans? How many voted to Remain just because it's what they are used to? Maybe you give Remain voters a lot more credit than they deserve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: And what makes you think that this affected the vote at all? How do you know that Leave voters were more uneducated than Remain voters? How many Remain voters know about the Lisbon Treaty? The plans for a European Army? Expansion plans? How many voted to Remain just because it's what they are used to? Maybe you give Remain voters a lot more credit than they deserve? Explain the Lisbon treaty to us here. I want to see how many of the lies you believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Explain the Lisbon treaty to us here. I want to see how many of the lies you believe. How do you know your interpretation it is better than anyone else's for you to be able to deduce what are lies? No need for me to believe what other people say, there is plenty to read about it on the internet:- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: How do you know your interpretation it is better than anyone else's for you to be able to deduce what are lies? No need for me to believe what other people say, there is plenty to read about it on the internet:- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon Shame you ducked the question, as there are a lot of lies being peddled about the Lisbon treaty. I hope you don't think what is circulating is true. https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Shame you ducked the question, as there are a lot of lies being peddled about the Lisbon treaty. I hope you don't think what is circulating is true. https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/ Ducked the question? Why would I need to explain it to you? I've posted a link to the Wikipedia page so you can read it for yourself, I'm not going to try and interpret it for you, make your own mind up about what is in it. As usual it appears the Remain voters know the full truth about everything and just the Leave voters fall for lies...its getting extremely boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: You wouldnt hold a Referendum on something that was impossible. You're right. I wouldn't. David Cameron on the other hand.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 3 hours ago, Angry Ram said: Whilst I agree automation is a huge issue in manufacturing etc, is it capitalism or just progress. Whilst it could be argued that both go hand in hand, where would we be without it? Would you not have progress? The world and society has to change to meet the progression surely? It starts in manufacturing, before taking over more and more jobs in different fields, the irony being that those keenest to implement it, those holding most of the upper echelon jobs will eventually lose theirs as well. Productivity and profit is the driving force behind it, as you know, in other words capitalism. It could be called progress if there was a societal plan to go along with it, that it become a good thing for everyone, but i don't think there is or see any indications of that being in the works. If there is a plan, it will address the growing problem of what to do with all the useless eaters, get rid of them one way or another would be my guess, after all it is just good business. It will become a crime to be poor, it already is when it comes to homeless folks. Sure, i want change, i feel for folks stuck in soulless dead end jobs on insufficient pay, slaving to fill the pockets of their employers. i just don't have any confidence in our bought and paid for politicians and academics to think of the welfare of the whole during these changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: Ducked the question? Why would I need to explain it to you? I've posted a link to the Wikipedia page so you can read it for yourself, I'm not going to try and interpret it for you, make your own mind up about what is in it. As usual it appears the Remain voters know the full truth about everything and just the Leave voters fall for lies...its getting extremely boring. OK, so which bit of that wiki page do you fear most? Do you see any benefits at all in the Lisbon treaty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 1 hour ago, GboroRam said: Why pay your credit card? Let's use that money to go shopping instead. Great idea, but the extra cost of paying through small claims court or having a CCJ eats up the monthly balance, so you actually don't have the money to go shopping at all. In fact you're worse off. Was a great soundbite but in actual fact it was a big fat lie. Just like the bus. Don't hide behind semantics that the bus just said "why don't we", it never said we will. People were taken in by the message that the NHS is getting extra cash. Brexiters are now saying that the costs are worth it for "sovereignty". Nobody said brexit will cost the central purse money, which means less for public services like the NHS. Credit cards, CCJs. WTF are you on about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 21 minutes ago, ramit said: It starts in manufacturing, before taking over more and more jobs in different fields, the irony being that those keenest to implement it, those holding most of the upper echelon jobs will eventually lose theirs as well. Productivity and profit is the driving force behind it, as you know, in other words capitalism. It could be called progress if there was a societal plan to go along with it, that it become a good thing for everyone, but i don't think there is or see any indications of that being in the works. If there is a plan, it will address the growing problem of what to do with all the useless eaters, get rid of them one way or another would be my guess, after all it is just good business. It will become a crime to be poor, it already is when it comes to homeless folks. Sure, i want change, i feel for folks stuck in soulless dead end jobs on insufficient pay, slaving to fill the pockets of their employers. i just don't have any confidence in our bought and paid for politicians and academics to think of the welfare of the whole during these changes. Lucky you weren’t around when we had the industrial revolution. I don’t actually disagree with much of what you have said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 49 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: You're right. I wouldn't. David Cameron on the other hand.... Well do you think being a member of an institution that it is impossible to get out of the is good for us a nation? Would you subscribe to Sky TV knowing that you had to subscribe to it forever, knowing that they change the terms and conditions when they want to (I know you will use the veto to counter this)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, GboroRam said: OK, so which bit of that wiki page do you fear most? Do you see any benefits at all in the Lisbon treaty? The Treaty as a whole is everything that I am against. It is another towards being controlled by European politicians that we do not elect and have no mechanism for removing. The EEC was a perfectly good idea and should have remained just as that, any further integration beyond that I am completely against. Europe is a large area with a lot of countries with different cultures and expectations, I see no rational reason to try and convert it into a single state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimRam Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 51 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: The Treaty as a whole is everything that I am against. It is another towards being controlled by European politicians that we do not elect and have no mechanism for removing. The EEC was a perfectly good idea and should have remained just as that, any further integration beyond that I am completely against. Europe is a large area with a lot of countries with different cultures and expectations, I see no rational reason to try and convert it into a single state. This is a good post and the reason I voted leave. Having so many countries in a "one size fits all" situation (with more set to join no doubt) is asking for trouble. We already had a taste with Ireland and Greece needing financial bailouts. It's really just a vanity project for a certain country to be in charge over others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 39 minutes ago, TimRam said: This is a good post and the reason I voted leave. Having so many countries in a "one size fits all" situation (with more set to join no doubt) is asking for trouble. We already had a taste with Ireland and Greece needing financial bailouts. It's really just a vanity project for a certain country to be in charge over others. Agreed, a country that has done more to destroy Europe than any other country in history too. I suppose at least via their EU membership fee they are going someway to repairing all of the damage they inflicted on Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 3 hours ago, GboroRam said: Don't hide behind semantics that the bus just said "why don't we", it never said we will. People were taken in by the message that the NHS is getting extra cash. Have you got any evidence of this? I've never heard a Brexiteer say this, all O ever hear is Leavers telling Brexiteers that this is what they thought like it's some sort of weird mind control game where you tell 17.4m what they were thinking. And what evidence do you have the the NHS will not receive extra cash after Brexit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 20 hours ago, Angry Ram said: You really are the most erratic poster on here. Have you ever tried to bring a skilled person into this country? If you had, you would know how difficult it can be and the proof have to supply in order to gain the Tier 2 visa. Run along now.. I am sure there is a thread for you somewhere.. Nope, as I think there is enough skill in the EU, and I don't have to spend time and money going down that route. Has to be an exceptional case, brain surgeon, rocket scientist or some other complex field of science. Of course I am erratic (protean is a better word), anything else would be dull. How can you run in a forum....hmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Have you got any evidence of this? I've never heard a Brexiteer say this, all O ever hear is Leavers telling Brexiteers that this is what they thought like it's some sort of weird mind control game where you tell 17.4m what they were thinking. And what evidence do you have the the NHS will not receive extra cash after Brexit? Yes. The woman my wife used to be carer for said she voted leave because the NHS needs saving. She says now that she feels she voted for a lie. Every Brexit supporting leading figure has distanced themselves from that bus, saying it wasn't ever a promise. The country is apparently already £500m per week worse off. So we've spent £500m to save £350m. How do we have less money and spend more on the NHS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: The Treaty as a whole is everything that I am against. Everything? The treaty as a whole? So you're opposed to enshrining certain political, social, and economic rights for both European Union citizens and residents, into EU law? You're opposed to a charter of fundamental rights being legally binding? You're opposed to mutual solidarity between members attacked by terrorists? You're opposed to expanding the use of qualified majority voting? Or are you opposed to the mandatory introduction of the Euro and the loss of the UK veto? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 25 minutes ago, McRamFan said: Nope, as I think there is enough skill in the EU, and I don't have to spend time and money going down that route. Has to be an exceptional case, brain surgeon, rocket scientist or some other complex field of science. Of course I am erratic (protean is a better word), anything else would be dull. How can you run in a forum....hmm. Well they can still come then can’t they. You seem to think we are pulling up the draw bridge and will never speak to a European again.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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