1967Ram Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 19 hours ago, ariotofmyown said: That's like saying a bad headache was better than having my eyes gouged out. True, but a bad headache is at least better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 Now that Johnson has got Brexit done, can we please move on to a more straightforward subject...what the hell is going on at the Turkish border? Like in Star Wars, there is always a clear goody and baddie. Who should we get behind in this latest battle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 12 hours ago, ariotofmyown said: Now that Johnson has got Brexit done, can we please move on to a more straightforward subject...what the hell is going on at the Turkish border? Like in Star Wars, there is always a clear goody and baddie. Who should we get behind in this latest battle? Trump getting slaughtered in the US by the Republican side.. Turkey threatening the EU to open the border and let all sorts in.. I think Turkey just closed any possibility of joining the EU. Trump might just have killed his presidency.. Two big wins then. What the rest of the world does about that part of the world.. God knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 11 hours ago, Angry Ram said: Trump getting slaughtered in the US by the Republican side.. Turkey threatening the EU to open the border and let all sorts in.. I think Turkey just closed any possibility of joining the EU. Trump might just have killed his presidency.. Two big wins then. What the rest of the world does about that part of the world.. God knows. No religion these days thanks @Angry Ram. I hope Turkey sorts itself out soon as I love it there and hope it can one day be the country that stabilises that region. Looks like that ship has sailed now though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1of4 Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 2 hours ago, maxjam said: haven't we been told repeatedly for the past 3 years that literally anything is better than a no deal Brexit Thought the mantra was no deal was better than a bad deal. I've always been curious about who decides what is or isn't a bad deal for the people of the UK. May's deal was deemed to be a bad deal by a majority of our MPs in Parliament. A decision that seemed to anger many leave voters, claiming what the MPs did was against the will of the people. So should the people be given a vote on any deal. No wait we can't do that either as brexiteers will say, as they have done previously, that a second referendum would be undemocratic. If a no deal is better than a bad deal as we were now continually being told by Johnson and his supporters. Why are some of his cohorts now pointing an accusing finger at the EU in an attempt to blame them, when things go tits up when we leave without a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexxxxx Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 11 hours ago, Angry Ram said: Trump getting slaughtered in the US by the Republican side.. Turkey threatening the EU to open the border and let all sorts in.. I think Turkey just closed any possibility of joining the EU. Trump might just have killed his presidency.. Two big wins then. What the rest of the world does about that part of the world.. God knows. Honestly think trump will be re-elected unless there's a huge crisis summer/autumn next year. Like Johnson, any controversy just comes out in the wash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said: No religion these days thanks @Angry Ram. I hope Turkey sorts itself out soon as I love it there and hope it can one day be the country that stabilises that region. Looks like that ship has sailed now though. They need to see the back of Erdogan first. A dreadful man, he would take Turkey back to the Middle Ages if he could. No matter who is in charge next, and I hope and expect it to be someone more progressive, Turkey's issue with the Kurds is not going to go away. That's something they will finally have to face up to in a pragmatic manner. Fascinating country in many ways and an amazing place to visit. If you like history there may be no place like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 53 minutes ago, alexxxxx said: Honestly think trump will be re-elected unless there's a huge crisis summer/autumn next year. Like Johnson, any controversy just comes out in the wash. It's still a possibility, but I don't think so. The fact that even some conservatives are turning against him now should be the final nail in the coffin of the most improbable of all US presidencies. How he made it this far is still a complete mystery to me. Of course that all may be wishful thinking on my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 19 minutes ago, Highgate said: They need to see the back of Erdogan first. A dreadful man, he would take Turkey back to the Middle Ages if he could. No matter who is in charge next, and I hope and expect it to be someone more progressive, Turkey's issue with the Kurds is not going to go away. That's something they will finally have to face up to in a pragmatic manner. Fascinating country in many ways and an amazing place to visit. If you like history there may be no place like it. Read 'Prisoners of Geography' recently and made interesting points on Turkey. Said that Turkey spent many years becoming more secular and progressive with the aim of becoming integrated into Europe. When they realised/were told that would never be accepted, they looked East and started to move more towards the Middle East culturally and politically. And religiously. Seems Erdogan will ever go without a big fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 11 hours ago, 1of4 said: If a no deal is better than a bad deal as we were now continually being told by Johnson and his supporters. Why are some of his cohorts now pointing an accusing finger at the EU in an attempt to blame them, when things go tits up when we leave without a deal. It has been tory mantra since Heath's days. All that is bad for the UK is down to the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 16 hours ago, FindernRam said: Who flogged off all our gold a rock bottom prices?- The fiscally challenged Labour Party Who flogged off the entire British Infrastructure, and what was done with that money? Who forced very stable and secure Building Societies to become corporate banks? That damage is still being felt now. As for the Brown deal on the Gold, he made bigger mistakes than that. Try harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 16 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: Privatisation Under Thatcher British Petroleum October 1979 British Aerospace February 1981 Cable & Wireless October 1981 Amersham International February 1982 National Freight Corporation February 1982 Britoil November 1982 Associated British Ports February 1983 Enterprise Oil July 1984 Jaguar August 1984 British Telecommunications December 1984 British Shipbuilders 1985 onwards British Gas December 1986 British Airways February 1987 Rolls-Royce May 1987 BAA July 1987 British Steel December 1988 Water December 1989 Electricity 1990 Oh well... Electric and Water should not have been provatised but the others have either: 1. Grown into global companies who are very prfitable and we are seeing the benefits in our pension funds 2. Were basket cases in declining industries and would have become money-pits as state-owned enterprises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 11 hours ago, alexxxxx said: Honestly think trump will be re-elected unless there's a huge crisis summer/autumn next year. Like Johnson, any controversy just comes out in the wash. You could be right. This could cause him more problems than the impeachment though. He will swerve that bullet without a doubt but he is taking flak from his own side over this. The lack of a alternative could be the only thing that saves him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Van Wolfie said: Electric and Water should not have been provatised but the others have either: 1. Grown into global companies who are very prfitable and we are seeing the benefits in our pension funds 2. Were basket cases in declining industries and would have become money-pits as state-owned enterprises. Was there a reason you missed British Gas from the list which you agree should have remained in public ownership? The others I think there is a a strong argument that continued public ownership in those times of increasing globalisation and rapid computerisation would have been pretty troublesome! However - i think the key point in question is that we the people had a stake in those nationalised industries that were then sold without us necessarily getting anything in return I make the same point with Academy Schools, the first thing a lot of these schools do once privatised is sell off half the playing fields to housing developers. That was OUR land. Where has that money gone? Improving education? Don't we pay our taxes for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 47 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Was there a reason you missed British Gas from the list which you agree should have remained in public ownership? Yes, sorry. BG should have been in there. Quote The others I think there is a a strong argument that continued public ownership in those times of increasing globalisation and rapid computerisation would have been pretty troublesome! However - i think the key point in question is that we the people had a stake in those nationalised industries that were then sold without us necessarily getting anything in return But you didn't have a stake. Not really. Certainly no say in anything. How did you actually benefit from BP being publicly owned? I would argue that we have just as much of a stake nowadays if you have a personal pension which is invested in them & share in their profits. Like it or not, there aren't many publicly owned enterprises which are capable of being competitive in a global marketplace......outside of China anyway - and that's because they manipulate their exchange rate to keep them competitive, plus labour costing peanuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 26 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said: Yes, sorry. BG should have been in there. But you didn't have a stake. Not really. Certainly no say in anything. How did you actually benefit from BP being publicly owned? I would argue that we have just as much of a stake nowadays if you have a personal pension which is invested in them & share in their profits. Like it or not, there aren't many publicly owned enterprises which are capable of being competitive in a global marketplace......outside of China anyway - and that's because they manipulate their exchange rate to keep them competitive, plus labour costing peanuts. I actually agree with some of the points you make but harking back to the post I replied to, where was the benefit for Joe Public from our stock of gold reserves. I'd argue there was even less benefit derived hence the comparison. Equally, I think the sale of utilities was an absolute disgrace as is foreign ownership of ports, railways and the like. It's now cheaper to fly to Madrid than for me to buy a peak time return train ticket to London and yet the services have not improved one iota, far from it. Compare and contrast the cost of public transport on the continent - it's not a pretty picture! Also, not all privatisation has improved the services / products offered by the respective enterprises, in my opinion at least, rather it seems a good few of the entities have become cash cows for foreign investors and pension funds not exclusively by any means, those of British folk. That ought to upset a few Brexiters I'd have thought, but it seems to get overlooked. I do concede your point about the 'mad cows' though ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 2 hours ago, Angry Ram said: You could be right. This could cause him more problems than the impeachment though. He will swerve that bullet without a doubt but he is taking flak from his own side over this. The lack of a alternative could be the only thing that saves him. An alternative Republican nominee? Or the lack of a decent Democrat opponent in the election itself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Van Wolfie said: But you didn't have a stake. Not really. Certainly no say in anything. How did you actually benefit from BP being publicly owned? Maybe stake was the wrong word, I meant in a more figurative sense - where nationalised industries were built from the ground up, using "our" money - meaning money that belonged to us as a nation and them maintained via taxation and whatever profit that was made on the utility bills we paid. Publicly owned meaning owned by the public You make a good point about pensions investments in the privatised industries (and you have made this before I remember in the original politics thread) - it just doesnt sit right though - whatever money we eventually take out of our pensions where the interest has been derived from these investments - I'm pretty sure it's a pittance compared to the money that has been siphoned from our publicly owned assets into the pockets of private enterprise. Back to my old riposte to the socialism jibe - the problem with capitalism is that eventually all the money ends up in offshore tax havens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 12 hours ago, ariotofmyown said: Read 'Prisoners of Geography' recently and made interesting points on Turkey. Said that Turkey spent many years becoming more secular and progressive with the aim of becoming integrated into Europe. When they realised/were told that would never be accepted, they looked East and started to move more towards the Middle East culturally and politically. And religiously. Seems Erdogan will ever go without a big fight. Yeah I read that too, interesting stuff. I think Turkey is clearly a divided country (which one isn't theses days), between those who believe in Ataturk's founding secular model and those who would like their faith to play a more central role in government policy. This division has always been there to some extent but it is Erdogan who is finally pushing the conservative agenda like never before. Certainly, the problems with the EU have strengthened his hand but I think demographics are ultimately against him, as seen in the Istanbul mayoral election recently (both of them). Interestingly Erdogan loves to display his own image next to that of Ataturk at any public gathering, even while he implements policies that are the polar opposite of Ataturk's vision for Turkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 36 minutes ago, Highgate said: An alternative Republican nominee? Or the lack of a decent Democrat opponent in the election itself? Democrat.. They are too far left to get any real traction outside NY & LA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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