'suspicious' man outside Derby County's training ground

[Norman]

17 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

As usual, you contribute nothing except pathetic, half arsed insults. 

I clapped this post, but I just want you to know @i-Ram, it's only because I love them ?.

[McRainy]

3 minutes ago, Alpha said:

 

I will stick up for him here. 

They are not half arsed. 

I've no idea what he's talking about. I don't even have a television. 

If you want to insult someone, at least make it vaguely comprehensible to the intended target. 

[Cjay]

4 minutes ago, David said:

You're the first Leeds fan I've responded to on this because to be honest we will never agree on the rights and wrongs of this, just see it as a pointless discussion to be had, those that have gone back and forth have shown it gets nowhere and there's some pretty terrible analogies flying around from both sides. 

As Lampard said yesterday Derby fans will think it's unacceptable, Leeds fans won't and the rest won't care which is probably fair.

I understand why you would come on and defend your manager, after years of struggling and the dark days in League 1 he appears to be taking you back to the Premier League, right now the sun will shining out his arse. Days out to Old Trafford again I bet you're buzzing and so you should be.

I would guess you are a little concerned by this and what action the EFL will bring on Bielsa or the club though?

We all know he's not the most stable of managers and wouldn't think twice about walking away, so anything that could derail what's going on up at Elland Road right now I must be causing a little anxiety whilst we await the EFL and FA verdict?

What I'm really really really struggling to understand is why some, or should I say 1 from what I can see, of our own fans has quickly jumped to the defence of the stand up honest truth speaker Bielsa and automatically labelled Lampard a hypocrite and basically a liar over one modified quote from AVB.

Didn't Bielsa refuse to say if he would continue this practice, very honest of him.

I'm not here to say Lampard has never told a porky in his life, he's human we've all done it, I just don't see what Lampard has done to be labelled as this over the one quote. In fact without proof you could argue a case for defamation of character.

Do you think all of the Leeds players knew Bielsa had a mate in a bush outside Moor Farm on Thursday? 

As a Leeds fan I'm sure you find it pretty funny, but look it from our point of view, don't you think it's a bit weird, endearing has also been used to describe Bielsa!

Now others may agree with Lambchop's baseless assumptions but haven't spoke up, I'd image a number of Derby fans are a bit bored by this and want it to just blow over, not bothered if Leeds are punished or not.

But this agenda being driven by one of our own is really disturbing.

I will end by saying on Friday night and earlier in the season Leeds were by far the better team, man in the bush or not, and if you continue the performances shown in the first half of the season with no points deduction you will go up, and it will be deserved.

Am I bitter? Not at all, jealous? Again no, but I'm envious of the way he has you playing and the position in the table, who wouldn't be. Enjoy it and I hope the EFL throw the book at him and the book shelf.

As you say we will.never agree really, good points can be made on all sides but people have there views and as you rightly point out as Lampard said, you will have your view, we have ours and the rest of football has theres.

I shouldn't have been questioning Lampards character actually, that was wrong and i am more leaning towards non football matters, i shouldn't have done that. 

I would defend Bielsa for the reasons you say but also because i have done a lot of reading on him because as he is our manager i wanted to find put the most i could, so having done that i did take exception to people questioning his character and basically calling him a cheat, that's not fair on him and anyone who reads about him would know thats not true. 

He isnt a bad person which "cheating" implies, he gave £2mil away to his old club just a few months ago to repay a "debt" , basically they helped him so he helped them.

Not worried about points deductions i think thats pretty fanciful and would open the EFL up to all sorts of legal trouble if LUFC wanted to.

I am worried about Bielsa, as mentioned despite the opinions of some he is a very principled and deep thinking man, if he feels he is being unjustly hounded he could just walk ?

Being honest he doesnt need us, he doesnt need English football, he is 63 with millions in the bank,  he could walk into a higher paid job abroad tomorrow.

So i am concerned if he feels he is being victimised he may walk.

For me i think the issue with Lampard is he is clearly flustered, he has seen his side beaten and he is now criticising the practices of one of the most respected managers on the planet.

He has seen his fellow pros, fellow teammates in some cases basically dismiss it as a non event and say "well this has gone on for years".

And then the AVB stuff came out.

The AVB thing isn'ta secret, his role under Jose was well documented at Porto and his job title at Chelsea was Assistant Scout.

Jose wasnt an above board sort of guy, Lampard knew that, he took tactical advice from a laundry basket quite readily.

I think with the greatest of respect to Frank the idea he didnt know is pretty fanciful and the idea a man as high up in football with family high up wouldn't know about the shadier things that go on in the game is very unlikely.

I understand why Lampard would try and dismiss the Chelsea stuff but his answer wasnt the most convincing either.

He did, Bielsa didnt apologise or say he wouldn't do it again because in his mind he hasnt done anything wrong, and technically he hasnt. I dont think he will do it again but i respect him for his honesty and his refusal to bow down.

No I'm sure our players didnt but i think the difference is there was an article in a national paper in 2005 i think detailing what AVB used to get up to,it was in the public domain when Frank was a player.

AVBs role under Jose has never ever been a secret, i would imagine the club would have been aware of what AVB was there to do and i think the players between themselves would to, they may not admit it publicly but i think most players are quite savvy regarding the workings of this sort of thing as has become apparent in the aftermath.

I fully understand Derby fans being upset, absolutely. Its Franks questionable attitude i take exception to. 

I dont think Bielsa sees it as cheating though, from reading about him thats not how he works, he sees it as being thorough and methodical and doing what he has to within the law to gather information. From our point of view i admire him tbh, not going to lie.

Fergie had a helicopter fly over the City training ground back in the day.

I think whatever your view what is telling is the level of people who have come out in Bielsas defence, international players and managers and award winning journalists.

The level between the condemnation and dismissing parties is quite great.

Is that because of the respect Bielsa has or is it just because those at the top of the game are more aware of the shady side of it? Which is why i find Franks denials more baffling tbh, players his level his teammates knew but he didnt?

Tbh all a bit bored of it now i think, its not likely to greatly improve your season whatever happens and the chances of it negatively impacting ours is greater but still not massively concerning.

Thanks for the response and whatever happens goodluck for the rest of the season.

 

[Cjay]

26 minutes ago, Andicis said:

So pleading guilty to his antics makes it okay that he did it in the first place? Doubt they could get away with denying all knowledge as it was known before Bielsa admitted it that it was a member of staff from Leeds United. I get it, you want your own club to win and to support your manager, but surely you must acknowledge his actions as wrong? 

I acknowledge in the spirit of the game his actions were wrong i really do.

I can also see it from Bielsas side because as mentioned i have done a hell of a lot of research into him (a hell of a lot it was astounding even to me)?

Bielsa essentially said he acted alone, the club apologised.

I dont know what the EFL would have done had Bielsa denied it, there statement makes it sound like nothing.

I compared it on our forum to the Wolves situation last season.

Wolves did nothing illegal last season, but was what they did fair? No.

Thats what i think here, nothing illegal, fair? Probably not, but at the same time really worth all this fuss? Not imo.

[i-Ram]

13 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

I've no idea what he's talking about. I don't even have a television. 

If you want to insult someone, at least make it vaguely comprehensible to the intended target. 

If you would like to give me a list of your household chattels l will try harder to make sure my insults are comprehensible for you.

p.s. Next time you are at the Library you must seek out the very fine literary works of Ann Cleeves.

[Cjay]

29 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Only one has a history of winning things too. 

Only one has tactical ideas that have accounted for multiple trophies in World football.

Frank helped a team, MB helped many teams?

[Cjay]

35 minutes ago, Norman said:

You aren't very good at this are you? You can't write honest and principled in a paragraph describing a man who spies on other teams. It's not how it works.

You obviously aren't this CJ are you?

 

He admitted his guilt-honesty.

He didnt see he had done anything wrong so refused to apologise -principled.

But no i am not that Cj

Although i had a shirt like that

[Ghost of Clough]

6 minutes ago, Lambchop said:

I've explained it until I'm blue in the face. I don't care what Bielsa did, I care about Lampard making Derby look stupid. I also try to take an objective view of the situation, which is far more than can be said for you. You've just put your head in the sand as far as I'm concerned. 

I've said what I want to say. You can breathe a sigh of relief, I won't bother trying to discuss it with you any further. 

Your “objective view” certainly doesn’t come across the way you imagine it too. 

 

Regarding the Mourinho’s laundry basket event at Chelsea being used against Lampard... All I can find is allegations and no direct quotes. In fact The Mail and The Times alleged that about 10 minutes before the end of the game, which Chelsea won 4-2, the manager clambered into one of the laundry skips. So rather than sneaking into the changing room for a half time team talk, he allegedly snook in to celebrate with his team. Is that cheating? The only ‘proof’ I can find is from Maniche (played under Mourinho at Porto, Chelsea and Inter), who says he did sneak into the changing rooms to deliver team-talks on one occasion. During a match between Porto and Boavista in 2004. Why state that game and not the higher profile Chelsea vs Munich if it was true?

I still haven’t seen any quotes suggesting AVB was spying in the same way as the Leeds fella. The articles you share say “incognito”, suggesting he was in plain sight (but pretending not to be who he was) rather than hiding in bushes. O’ve Interpreted AVB’s quotes the same way as David, which is obviously different to you. However, whether Frank actually knew what AVB was doing on a day to day basis is a complete unknown to the majority of us. 

[curb]

Yes, we get it now, your manager is the most honest up-standing man on the planet, respected and loved by everyone in the football world, who has never lied or done anything wrong in his life, while our devious, lying manager tried to Assassinate his character by wrongly accusing him of underhand tricks which everyone in football knows happens week in and week out at every training ground in the country. 

Thank you for putting us right on this matter. Its been an absolute pleasure having you on our forum. 

[Day]

@Cjay I won't quote your full post as it's quite lengthy as was mine, but I have to pull you up on the AVB/Mourinho/Laundry basket stuff.

The laundry basket thing unless I'm mistaken has always been nothing more than a rumour, conspiracy theories were flying around before the game even took place and this came out and to this day is still an unverified rumour. It may well be true but I don't think you can use rumours too backup the theory Frank must have been party to some dodgy rule bending himself.

The AVB "spying" quote which is claimed to be widely known all links back to the one article in the Telegraph, be honest, was you aware of it until it resurfaced recently? 

The exact quote was “I will travel to training grounds, often incognito, and look at our opponents’ mental and physical state before drawing my conclusions. Jose will leave nothing to chance.”

At no point does he admit to watching training sessions, just travelling to the training grounds. As I pointed out earlier, this could quite easily be sat in car parks with a plastic nose and moustache taking notes of how the players are behaving, do they have legs strapped up, limping around.

He could have been watching training, I won't dismiss that idea completely, but without proof I don't think you can jump to that conclusion, and then claim Frank also knew what was going off. 

As you said yourself, you don't believe the Leeds players know, I fail to see how you can say Frank must have.

Yes, he's spoke of his admiration for Mourinho, again I don't see how you can automatically say he must have known everything Mourinho was up to.

Rooney was on BT Sport the other week not long after Mourinho was sacked and speaking about him, said how little he talks to the players and he had no idea why he wasn't played, he received no feedback. Joe Cole also the other day said similar, recalling the one time that sticks in his mind is when he came to the back of the bus and said you're playing in the next game.

I'll leave it there anyway, as anything else would be rehashing earlier thoughts. Sooner the EFL and FA report their findings and this case is closed the better to be honest. 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

28 minutes ago, Cjay said:

I acknowledge in the spirit of the game his actions were wrong i really do.

I can also see it from Bielsas side because as mentioned i have done a hell of a lot of research into him (a hell of a lot it was astounding even to me)?

Bielsa essentially said he acted alone, the club apologised.

I dont know what the EFL would have done had Bielsa denied it, there statement makes it sound like nothing.

I compared it on our forum to the Wolves situation last season.

Wolves did nothing illegal last season, but was what they did fair? No.

Thats what i think here, nothing illegal, fair? Probably not, but at the same time really worth all this fuss? Not imo.

The rage induced in those supporting that filthy team in red, when Roofe volley balled that goal against them earlier in the season means I forgive you . Lend us a centre half till the end of the season and we'll call it quits. 

[Comrade 86]

For anyone like me who might be confused by this 50+ page thread, Leeds cheated, we didn't. Probably made **** all difference but thought it worth pointing out the facts as they seem to be getting buried in the fiction.

[Cjay]

@David

Will keep this short because its late lol.

I believe and i could be wrong but the AVB thing does link back to the Telegraph article, but i have heard he goes into detail in his book about what he used to do.

He doesnt admit specially spying on training sessions (that I've seen)  but wouldn't you agree its incredibly unlikely a man famous for his analysis would just travel hundreds of miles to Newcastle for example just to sit in the car park of the training ground? AVB was famous for his meticulous nature and would sometimes spend days scouting opponents apparently, he wasnt sitting in a car park for days. I think while there isnt a specific admission i think its fairly clear what he was doing imo.

Maniche i think it was confirmed the laundry basket tactic was one that he personally saw Jose do, whether that was Porto or Chelsea i dont know mate but the tactic is a matter of fact according to an ex player.

True enough on the Lampard knowing, that was an assumption i made. 

But AVB did go to opposition training grounds in disguise by his own admission, whether that was just to sit in the carpark or spy that in itself is underhand and sneaky and not within the spirit of the game.

Probably never know the whole truth on all of this sort of thing, i just think its hard to believe Lampard isn't aware of this sort of thing, people gaining inside information by underhand means

And i think its doubtful Frank hasnt gained a bit of a hand for his own benifit in the past, texting a mate on another team, talking to a coach etc.

I agree, think the EFL should just get on with it now.

[maxjam]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11608519/efl-should-give-derby-2-0-win-over-leeds-after-spy-says-stuart-pearce

'EFL should give Derby 2-0 win over Leeds after 'spy', says Stuart Pearce'

I think I've slipped into an alternate reality...

[Day]

1 minute ago, maxjam said:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11608519/efl-should-give-derby-2-0-win-over-leeds-after-spy-says-stuart-pearce

'EFL should give Derby 2-0 win over Leeds after 'spy', says Stuart Pearce'

I think I've slipped into an alternate reality...

[Andicis]

9 minutes ago, ViperRam said:

Whole saga is an embarrassment . 

The only embarrassing thing for Derby on this saga, is the fact our fans are so willing to stick up for Leeds over us when we're the innocent party.

[Comrade 86]

7 minutes ago, ViperRam said:

I would love nothing more than Bielsa here at Derby.  Having read many books on him, read eulogies delivered from noteworthy legends of the game and seen the Spanish documentary on him and his life, he is a genius,  but a humble genius. 

duck knows why he chose Leeds.

Whole saga is an embarrassment . 

So you condone and eulogise the actions of a 'humble genius' who happens to be a cheat but are uncomfortable with the reaction of the club you claim to support. Yep. Can see why you're embarrassed. 

[Comrade 86]

6 minutes ago, Cjay said:

@David

Will keep this short because its late lol.

I believe and i could be wrong but the AVB thing does link back to the Telegraph article, but i have heard he goes into detail in his book about what he used to do.

He doesnt admit specially spying on training sessions (that I've seen)  but wouldn't you agree its incredibly unlikely a man famous for his analysis would just travel hundreds of miles to Newcastle for example just to sit in the car park of the training ground? AVB was famous for his meticulous nature and would sometimes spend days scouting opponents apparently, he wasnt sitting in a car park for days. I think while there isnt a specific admission i think its fairly clear what he was doing imo.

Maniche i think it was confirmed the laundry basket tactic was one that he personally saw Jose do, whether that was Porto or Chelsea i dont know mate but the tactic is a matter of fact according to an ex player.

True enough on the Lampard knowing, that was an assumption i made. 

But AVB did go to opposition training grounds in disguise by his own admission, whether that was just to sit in the carpark or spy that in itself is underhand and sneaky and not within the spirit of the game.

Probably never know the whole truth on all of this sort of thing, i just think its hard to believe Lampard isn't aware of this sort of thing, people gaining inside information by underhand means

And i think its doubtful Frank hasnt gained a bit of a hand for his own benifit in the past, texting a mate on another team, talking to a coach etc.

I agree, think the EFL should just get on with it now.

Mate that's not 'keeping it short' that's feckin war and peace. You've been repeating yourself for days now so because I'm concerned for your health I think you should wipe down your keyboard and go for a long walk. The fresh air will doubtless do you well.

[Ambitious]

19 minutes ago, maxjam said:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11608519/efl-should-give-derby-2-0-win-over-leeds-after-spy-says-stuart-pearce

'EFL should give Derby 2-0 win over Leeds after 'spy', says Stuart Pearce'

I think I've slipped into an alternate reality...

[RamNut]

Thanks but no thanks

i wouldn't want Derby to be awarded points that we didn't win on the pitch.

it would undermine the merit of anything we might achieve.