World Cup VAR

[maxjam]

Awful VAR decision by the ref for the penalty - even in slo-mo it wasn't a penalty.

That said, there have been a few decisions made with VAR at this World Cup in which viewing things in slo-mo give an unnatural perspective of whats actually happened in real time.

VAR should have been trialled for longer imo before being introduced into a major tournament.

[Gritstone Ram]

Playing things back in slow motion is not the same as real time. Sometimes a hand ball has to be intended rather than accidental. No way was the Iran penalty intentional. 

[ViewsFromTheMiddle]

[Mr Tibbs]

I agree. 

I like the tech, it's definitely needed. Ref's need to get up to speed with it ASAP though. Our standard of refereeing will be much better than dross like tonight so I think we'll do a better job of it on home soil. 

They definitely need to introduce some laws on who and when can try and initiate VAR though, bit like cricket. It's a free for all at the moment which is influencing decisions. Maybe bring in reviews per team, 1 a half. Everything else is left to the ref or if not you lose your review. Why not give the VAR room the final say too? Takes the pressure of the ref and will stop players/fans influencing decisions on-field. 

Either way, it's a bit of a dry run this summer. So much to learn from.

[Millenniumram]

Controversial I know but I’d honestly give the VAR ref (the lead of the 4 in the room) equal power to the ref on the pitch. If they see something on the video that’s been clearly called wrong, they call it and it’s their head on the block. They’re all qualified refs so should have the ability to make such a call without the ref coming over all the time. Unfortunately with the incompetence of current refs this is the only way to make the game quick enough and stop uproar on the fields from players towards refs, just take them out of the equation entirely.

[TigerTedd]

6 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Why is it VAR’s fault that the right decision isn’t always reached? It’s not VAR’s fault that the referees using it come to the wrong conclusion. As Gary Lineker said, it’s a matter of referee interpretation, the technology itself is good.

It will become more efficient upon referee training and the more it is used.

I agree with your thoughts on var, and do thinks it’s an inevitable, unavoidable and necessary future, so those fighting it really ought to put their energy into embracing it and helping to improve it. 

But, the bit I’ve highlighted above, I would’ve hoped the refs had already received a bit of training before the World Cup. It’s a bit late to start their training now.

The ref in the Spain game seemed to use it correctly. For example, Pique’s handball that led to the Morocco corner where they score. Arms down by his side, not intentional, I’m not even going to check (although he really should have checked a blatant handball earlier on). The ref in the Portugal match shoud’ve done the same. Not even going to check, clearly not intentional. And as Alan Shearer said, if you have to spend a good couple of minutes checking from every angle, then it’s not obvious. 

Eitger way, all refs should already know this, and should be applying the rules consistently. But I suppose it’s the same with or without var, you get some good refs and some bad refs, and you get inconsistency. 

PS because that penalty almost led to Portugal being knocked out. I’m all for it. 

But because it also led to Spain finishing first instead of second in the group, I hate it. 

[TimRam]

Why not be done with it and sit the flippin' ref in the var room all throughout the match. Just stupid. Grrrrr!

[TimRam]

20 minutes ago, LesterRam said:

Is VAR slowing the game down? Every little thing is being called into question.

Yes, it's killing the game.

[Kernow]

It really is a mess. The concept is good and in theory there's no reason it shouldn't work if implemented correctly, but sadly that hasn't happened yet. That's not down to the technology, it's the people making the decisions.

Goal-line technology is good because it works, if it was disallowing goals that went over the line or vice versa, then people would be kicking off about that too. But it gets every decision that it needs to correct, if VAR did that then there would be no discussion.

I just don't understand how these decisions can be made by "professionals". Tonight's decision was not a penalty. Compare that to the Mitrovic incident the other day, one of the most blatant penalties I can recall seeing. If we're going to have decisions like these given or not given, why not just leave it to the referee to decide in real time anyway.

[ViewsFromTheMiddle]

 

[May Contain Nuts]

19 minutes ago, Gritters said:

Playing things back in slow motion is not the same as real time. Sometimes a hand ball has to be intended rather than accidental. No way was the Iran penalty intentional. 

Not just sometimes, always.

90% of penalties for handball are absolute BS

 

"Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm"

" -  the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence"

 

The law's being applied backwards.

 

[ilkleyram]

Where it works well in sport is when it is being used to judge matters of fact - did the ball cross the line; will it hit the stumps; did it pitch in line; did the player exert downward pressure; did the ball hit the line or not? And even, was the player offside or not at the moment the ball was played or was the tackle inside the area or did it hit a player's hand or was that player fouled at a corner/free kick?  All the answers to those questions are largely right or wrong, no argument.

What it is also being used for though are matters of interpretation - was that a deliberate handball? Was the player fouled or did he dive? And even, did he play the ball first?  Those are only sometimes matters of fact. They are all mostly matters of interpretation and when it comes to interpretation - four referees on the pitch/ at least three in the VAR studio - then you will always get different opinions.  And there is an argument to say that the more referees you have the more opinions you will get.

1) Limit use of VAR to matters of fact 2) make the referee the sole arbiter - get rid of the VAR studio refs 3) mic the ref up to the stadium speaker system so that he can tell the crowd what's going on and what his decision is and why 4) book/send off players for making the tv/var sign just like asking for a booking  5) accept it will always be imperfect, just like referees, players, coaches, pundits and fans

[EnigmaRam]

VAR is only as good as the red making the decision. Tonight clearly showed that ref hasn’t got a clue.

VAR has been very good at making some crucial decisions that the refs missed during his World Cup. 

Its a work in progress but the players need to take some responsibility aswell. I’ve never seen such a Bunch of idiotic “role models” as I have in this World Cup.

[May Contain Nuts]

1 minute ago, EnigmaRam said:

VAR is only as good as the red making the decision. Tonight clearly showed that ref hasn’t got a clue.

VAR has been very good at making some crucial decisions that the refs missed during his World Cup. 

Its a work in progress but the players need to take some responsibility aswell. I’ve never seen such a Bunch of idiotic “role models” as I have in this World Cup.

Thing is "The Ref" got it right with the handball, then 5 other duckers decided he'd got it wrong and he crumbled.

[AndyinLiverpool]

52 minutes ago, Gritters said:

Playing things back in slow motion is not the same as real time. Sometimes a hand ball has to be intended rather than accidental. No way was the Iran penalty intentional. 

Handball always needs to be intended. If the ref considers it accidental he should not penalise it.

[SSD]

I can't get my head around why the video ref in the studio can't automatically just make the decisions, when the ref on the pitch makes an error which could effect the outcome of the game. Why does the referee have to watch the incident on a monitor and fanny about for ages stopping the game. If the ref's unsure, just let his colleague take the pressure off him and let the VAR officials make the decision there and then. Give VAR ref more power.

Although why do I have a suspicious feeling the ref's don't want to let go of the final say power? A bit of ego might hinder VAR progressing further but the basic idea of VAR I support 100%.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Actually most of the decisions reached via VAR have been correct. It's just the ones that have been wrong are big mistakes. I agree it has a place but has to be implimented in a much better way. 

[TigerTedd]

1 hour ago, ilkleyram said:

Where it works well in sport is when it is being used to judge matters of fact - did the ball cross the line; will it hit the stumps; did it pitch in line; did the player exert downward pressure; did the ball hit the line or not? And even, was the player offside or not at the moment the ball was played or was the tackle inside the area or did it hit a player's hand or was that player fouled at a corner/free kick?  All the answers to those questions are largely right or wrong, no argument.

What it is also being used for though are matters of interpretation - was that a deliberate handball? Was the player fouled or did he dive? And even, did he play the ball first?  Those are only sometimes matters of fact. They are all mostly matters of interpretation and when it comes to interpretation - four referees on the pitch/ at least three in the VAR studio - then you will always get different opinions.  And there is an argument to say that the more referees you have the more opinions you will get.

1) Limit use of VAR to matters of fact 2) make the referee the sole arbiter - get rid of the VAR studio refs 3) mic the ref up to the stadium speaker system so that he can tell the crowd what's going on and what his decision is and why 4) book/send off players for making the tv/var sign just like asking for a booking  5) accept it will always be imperfect, just like referees, players, coaches, pundits and fans

I’m sure that was the intention though. 

As you say, when it’s being used to judge off side, it’s pretty much black and white. Was the players studs up during that tackle. Did the players arm move in an unnatural way towards the ball? Did the player intentionally elbow the other players in the nose?

As long as the rules are interpreted correctly, most of it is black and white, there shouldn’t be any room for interpretation, and it should be consistent across the board. 

All refs are playing to the same rules, so why would two refs have a differing opinion. Either the rules aren’t written clearly enough, or refs aren’t being trained well enough. But it’s not the technologies fault. 

[Grimbeard]

2 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

We could just behave like adults and accept the referee's decision.

 

2 hours ago, DavesaRam said:

Unfortunately that requires the players and managers/coaches to behave like adults as well.

Easy.  Apart from the captain, no-one questions the ref, automatic yellow card for breaking this rule. Anyone behaving in an aggressive manner towards the ref: Automatic red card. Two or three games after the introduction of this and hey-presto; no more screaming hissy fits.  Seems to work in rugby and cricket.

It just needs the will to enforce it. T.V. companies might not like it though, because despite all their pious bleating and hand wringing, they love bad behaviour, gives 'em summat t' talk about at half-time. dunnit?

[ilkleyram]

47 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

I’m sure that was the intention though. 

As you say, when it’s being used to judge off side, it’s pretty much black and white. Was the players studs up during that tackle. Did the players arm move in an unnatural way towards the ball? Did the player intentionally elbow the other players in the nose?

As long as the rules are interpreted correctly, most of it is black and white, there shouldn’t be any room for interpretation, and it should be consistent across the board. 

All refs are playing to the same rules, so why would two refs have a differing opinion. Either the rules aren’t written clearly enough, or refs aren’t being trained well enough. But it’s not the technologies fault. 

But the law - which is that the handball must be deliberate - is one thing.  Deciding what is deliberate, or not, is quite another and is not always black and white and is often a matter of individual interpretation - as discussions in TV studios confirm. In most cases of handball in the penalty area it is impossible to tell whether the player meant to do so deliberately. Refs guess or are mind readers or both.  Ditto diving/fouling - 'he touched me therefore I was entitled to go down'. Well yes, he did touch you, but if you fell over every time a fly lands on you then you'll spend more time on the ground than Chris Martin. Get up and play on!

Moving an arm in an unnatural way (not sure how you actually do move your arm unnaturally, but that's a different argument) is not the law it's in the guidelines to interpreting the law to try to help referees.

So interpreting some of the laws has never been consistent and even with VAR never will be, as this WC is showing.  And you could argue that having more refs involved might add to the inconsistency