Chris Martin

[Sexydadbod]

2 hours ago, RodleyRam said:

I'm not sure it's ever been properly tested. I can see why it worked with Vydra and Nugent playing Rowettball but a different formation and style of play could easily suit that partnership. I genuinely don't see a proper reason why it couldn't work. They're very different players and could complement eachother. I doubt we will see it happen though.

I disagree that they’re very much different players. They have different attributes but they both occupy each other’s position, which would result in neither of them as being as effective as they could be. 

Its similar to why Ince was so great when he played with Bent, who never dropped deep and stayed high up, in contrast to him not being as good when playing with Martin because Ince liked to drift inside into the same position as Martin. We could get away with it when Ince was here because Ince could stay on the wing and we had Russell making off the ball movements on the other wing  to move defenders around. We don’t have those players anymore.

[Coneheadjohn]

2 hours ago, RodleyRam said:

I'm not sure it's ever been properly tested. I can see why it worked with Vydra and Nugent playing Rowettball but a different formation and style of play could easily suit that partnership. I genuinely don't see a proper reason why it couldn't work. They're very different players and could complement eachother. I doubt we will see it happen though.

All fair points.

[angieram]

4 hours ago, Carnero said:

When did this happen Angie?

In this post match interview.  I just thought at the time it was an odd word to use about a team mate so it's stuck with me.

https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2018/05/we-need-to-build-on-this-good-run

[cheron85]

4 hours ago, angieram said:

If mild mannered Craig Forsyth calls him selfish that says more to me than anything Vydra says.

I want my strikers selfish - Martin moaning when he doesn't get given the ball is one of my favourite qualities of his - I want a CF who wants the ball ALL the time - Who always wants to be on it and playing

This season we've had a squad full of players who seem to want to get rid of the ball as soon as possible - All this 'quick passing' seems to stem from none of them wanting the responsibility of having the ball - Huddlestone does, Thorne does, Lawrence does sometimes, Russell did before he left - And Martin always does - Nugent, Jerome, Vydra, Weimann - They're all guys who like being the end product and using the ball quickly - Not people who want to take responsibility for having the ball and creating space and play around them

[bcnram]

3 hours ago, McLovin said:

Sometimes goal scoring stats don’t tell the full story. Kane is going to win the golden boot but many fans would agree that he hasn’t been too good in this World Cup. In terms of their general play when Vydra and Martin played with each other they were poor and got in each other’s way as they both like to occupy the number 10 position, meaning they’d be no-one making the forward runs into the box. We don’t have the players anymore like under McClaren to burst into the box from midfield or from the wider positions.

They are both at their best when they have runners doing their donkey work for them. Martin was at his best when he dropped deep and had Russell, ward, Hendricks, Bryson etc running off him whilst Vydra as admitted by himself enjoys playing with Nugent the most out of the striking options.

Sometimes players just don’t work together like the Lampard-Gerrard debate with England.

Probably something to do with the comedy era that I was brought up in (the Goons, Monty Python), but I just find nonsense really hilarious. I laughed a lot at this post. Thank you. ?

[r4derby]

Martin and Vydra occupied the same spaces, because Rowett saw them both as number 10s. He said so in preseason, that despite Martins lack of pace he could see him filling that role well. So if Martin has been told to play the number 10, and Vydra is used to playing it, they’re both going to find similar spaces. It takes players a few games at least to get used to a position in diff managers formations and systems.

FWIW, Martin and Vydra could play together really well or be shocking. None of us know because we haven’t seen them together over a period of 5-10 games minimum. 

[RodleyRam]

6 hours ago, McLovin said:

I disagree that they’re very much different players. They have different attributes but they both occupy each other’s position, which would result in neither of them as being as effective as they could be. 

Its similar to why Ince was so great when he played with Bent, who never dropped deep and stayed high up, in contrast to him not being as good when playing with Martin because Ince liked to drift inside into the same position as Martin. We could get away with it when Ince was here because Ince could stay on the wing and we had Russell making off the ball movements on the other wing  to move defenders around. We don’t have those players anymore.

Can anyone find any player positional data to prove / disprove this?

Not saying you're wrong, I just don't buy the argument without some evidence to back that up. My sense would be that the Vydra/Nugent success was based on Rowettball style. I.e. Nugent was a willing runner and pulled defenders around on the counter for Vydra to exploit the space. They were a success because Martin wasn't suited to Rowettball, not necessarily because Vydra/Martin are incompatible per we.

If we play the ball on the deck higher up the pitch Vydra could benefit from Martin's layoffs and hold up play by arriving late in the box and running off flicks etc. In much the same way that Bryson, Russell and Hendrick did.

Although Martin can drop off and link up play I'd never put his role in Derby shirt as a no. 10. Nor would I say Vydra is classic no. 10 either for that matter!

Be interested to see  a positional comparison to back that up either way.

To be honest I think it's a moot point, if expect at least Vydra to leave this summer.

[Anag Ram]

5 minutes ago, RodleyRam said:

Can anyone find any player positional data to prove / disprove this?

Not saying you're wrong, I just don't buy the argument without some evidence to back that up. My sense would be that the Vydra/Nugent success was based on Rowettball style. I.e. Nugent was a willing runner and pulled defenders around on the counter for Vydra to exploit the space. They were a success because Martin wasn't suited to Rowettball, not necessarily because Vydra/Martin are incompatible per we.

If we play the ball on the deck higher up the pitch Vydra could benefit from Martin's layoffs and hold up play by arriving late in the box and running off flicks etc. In much the same way that Bryson, Russell and Hendrick did.

Although Martin can drop off and link up play I'd never put his role in Derby shirt as a no. 10. Nor would I say Vydra is classic no. 10 either for that matter!

Be interested to see  a positional comparison to back that up either way.

To be honest I think it's a moot point, if expect at least Vydra to leave this summer.

Wasn't part of the reason for Martin's exclusion the need for his 'three' to be mobile runners in support of the static 'two'?

Lawrence,Vydra,Weimann etc fit that bill.

If we have more mobile midfield options, Martin can be accommodated. 

[TuffLuff]

15 minutes ago, r4derby said:

Martin and Vydra occupied the same spaces, because Rowett saw them both as number 10s. He said so in preseason, that despite Martins lack of pace he could see him filling that role well. So if Martin has been told to play the number 10, and Vydra is used to playing it, they’re both going to find similar spaces. It takes players a few games at least to get used to a position in diff managers formations and systems.

FWIW, Martin and Vydra could play together really well or be shocking. None of us know because we haven’t seen them together over a period of 5-10 games minimum. 

Personally wonder whether there are too many variables, the weakness in Martin’s game, and this is probably sense Clements time, is that he was playing ten yards further back on the pitch (so a lot of the time when a ball is being crossed in, he’s on the 18 rather than the 6 yard box). Whether this was a deliberate move by management or a way for Martin to get more time on the ball it’s hard to say. Vydra also likes that space but needs the players around him to move to create room for him. 

Im getting ramble but I think the problem is that mainly they both like to be the focal point of a forward unit. Get Vydra running off Martin and working for the team, ideal. Or get Martin back to causing problems in the box rather than on the edge, that’d be good also, but at the minute In their current form I’m not sure even if I really wanted it to.

[Sparkle]

Rowett wanted his front three to run around like rabid dogs because no midfielders were allowed to go past the half way line by Christmas nugent couldn’t run anymore and Jerome was brought in to run around some more 

Martin has a habit of controlling the football and laying it off to advancing midfielders or given the chance someone who can make the correct run like Vydra 

Martin and Vydra to start games for me with Jerome substitute for either with some youthful endeavour on the flanks and proper support from central midfield and obviously someone to pass the ball to our forwards rather than them having to go in search of it.

[RodleyRam]

22 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

Wasn't part of the reason for Martin's exclusion the need for his 'three' to be mobile runners in support of the static 'two'?

Lawrence,Vydra,Weimann etc fit that bill.

If we have more mobile midfield options, Martin can be accommodated. 

Yep exactly what I think. Martin will always work if you get the ball to his feet and give him runners to link with. Not only that but he'll get goals too.

[SSD]

One of the best Radio Derby moan ins was when Gary Rowett genuinely thought Chris Martin could be a number ten. Craig Ramage trying desperately not to p*ss himself laughing. 

[Wolfie20]

11 minutes ago, SouthStandDan said:

One of the best Radio Derby moan ins was when Gary Rowett genuinely thought Chris Martin could be a number ten. Craig Ramage trying desperately not to p*ss himself laughing. 

Suppose it makes a change from people laughing at Ramage

[angieram]

5 hours ago, cheron85 said:

I want my strikers selfish - Martin moaning when he doesn't get given the ball is one of my favourite qualities of his - I want a CF who wants the ball ALL the time - Who always wants to be on it and playing

This season we've had a squad full of players who seem to want to get rid of the ball as soon as possible - All this 'quick passing' seems to stem from none of them wanting the responsibility of having the ball - Huddlestone does, Thorne does, Lawrence does sometimes, Russell did before he left - And Martin always does - Nugent, Jerome, Vydra, Weimann - They're all guys who like being the end product and using the ball quickly - Not people who want to take responsibility for having the ball and creating space and play around them

I don't disagree with wanting players to want the ball but they need to know what to do with it - when to pass and when to go for goal. I think Martin is actually one of the most unselfish players we have and if Ince had been likewise Martin would have had a lot more goals the season they played together. 

It's hard to judge Vydra last season because he didn't really have players round him in the same way Martin did.

[sage]

17 minutes ago, SouthStandDan said:

One of the best Radio Derby moan ins was when Gary Rowett genuinely thought Chris Martin could be a number ten. Craig Ramage trying desperately not to p*ss himself laughing. 

A selective memory...what actually occurred was Ramage said Martin can't play there in response to a caller and Rowett dismissed him brutally.

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, SouthStandDan said:

One of the best Radio Derby moan ins was when Gary Rowett genuinely thought Chris Martin could be a number ten. Craig Ramage trying desperately not to p*ss himself laughing. 

Just shows what Ramage knows, although he was no fan of Rowett so it's 50-50. Whats your problem with one of Derby's best strikers - check the records. Some Derby fans ought to give themselves a talking to.

[RamNut]

1 hour ago, sage said:

A selective memory...what actually occurred was Ramage said Martin can't play there in response to a caller and Rowett dismissed him brutally.

Thats not what i recall.

i remember Rowett rattling off a long list of potential no10s.....belatedly mentioned Martin.....and Ramage said "no, he's not mobile enough"...and a slightly chastened Rowett muttered something like "0h alright then".

 

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Thats not what i recall.

i remember Rowett rattling off a long list of potential no10s.....belatedly mentioned Martin.....and Ramage said "no, he's not mobile enough"...and a slightly chastened Rowett muttered something like "0h alright then".

Nope don't think it went like that - Rowett told Ramage that Martin could play no10 and Ramage started to bluster cos his fave boy Vydra plays there.

[sage]

4 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Thats not what i recall.

i remember Rowett rattling off a long list of potential no10s.....belatedly mentioned Martin.....and Ramage said "no, he's not mobile enough"...and a slightly chastened Rowett muttered something like "0h alright then".

 

Rowett chastened by Ramage ?

[RamNut]

Just now, sage said:

Rowett chastened by Ramage ?

True.