Why do you have faith in Rowett?

[Andicis]

So, I want to continue on from @Millenniumram 's post on stability, because I thought it was an excellent one.

Looking back for the past 6 years, and looking at the teams that got promoted from each:

2011/12 - Promoted: Reading, Southampton, West Ham United. Of these, Reading had McDermott for a year before, it was his second full season. Southampton who had Nigel Adkins on his second full season. West Ham had Sam Allardyce on his first full season for the club. So clearly for this year, stability was the name of the game, no changes in management mid season.

2012/13 - Promoted: Cardiff, Hull City and Crystal Palace. Of these, Cardiff had Malky Mackay, in his second season in charge. Hull City had Steve Bruce who they appointed that summer. Crystal Palace, who began the season with Dougie Freedman, who left in October, before Ian Holloway was hired in November. To conclude 2012/13, Palace achieved promotion with instability, but they didn't finish in the automatics and only finished 5th in the table.

2013/14- Promoted: Leicester City, Burnley, QPR . Leicester obviously had Nigel Pearson for the entire season. Burnley had Dyche for the full season. QPR had Redknapp all year. Again, a case for stability on the pitch (obviously QPR isn't a good example for stability on a club level, but on the pitch they had it this year).

2014/15 - Promoted: Bournemouth, Watford, Norwich. Bournemouth had Eddie Howe for the full season. Watford had a lot of instability. They started the season with Beppe Sannino, who left on the 31 of August. Followed by Oscar Garcia, who lasted 27 days from the 2 of September to the 29th of September and after that, on the 7th of October, they hired Slavisa Jokanovic who lasted until the end of the season. Norwich had Neil Adams until the 5th of January, and then appointed Alex Neil from the 9th of January till the end of the season. To summarise for this season, it was full of instability at the top.

15/16 - Promoted: Burnley, Boro, Hull City. Burnley obviously still have Sean Dyche. Boro had Aitor Karanka for the full season. Hull still had Steve Bruce. Not a lot to comment on this year, a pinnacle of managerial stability, apart from the wobble Karanka had when he threatened to walk out.

16/17 - Promoted: Newcastle, Brighton HA, Huddersfield Town. Newcastle had Rafa Benitez all year. Brighton had Chris Hughton since 2014, but stuck by him in a tough patch. Huddersfield Town had David Wagner since 2015. 

Overall view: If we're looking at teams going for promotion, not changing your manager inside a season seems to be pretty critical, teams who got promoted changing their manager in the recent past are anomalies and not rules. However, I certainly think there is a case for getting rid of Rowett at the end of the season and giving a new manager a fresh start and a transfer window to push into next season. However, changing him now might kill our chances of promotion, I'm still Rowett out, but he should get the rest of the season to stabilise us and then if he hasn't proven himself, make the necessary changes at the end of the year.

[WhiteHorseRam]

For me, I am always looking for continuous improvement.

Example - I remember when we were absolutely mired and looked doomed under George Burley, you could see him slowly dig us out of the cack.

Right now we suck. Sunderland and Burton were absolute bankers and we have blown it.

So of the remaining games I want to see perhaps a win  (Barnsley), I will accept a defeat (Cardiff, Warnock hates us and he will whip up his capable squad), but I want to see two draws - Villa and Boro (home). They are under pressure too and are not as strong as Wolves/Cardiff.

That would be 5 out of a possible 12 points. Relegation form, but would be an improvement on the current state.

And yes, I am depressed typing this.

[clarkeram7]

Football is a game of opinions. I actually think we play a better style of football to Clements or Mac2.. This run is obviously horrendous but I'd much rather watch his football than passing sideways for 90minutes. I don't think his style of play is 'hoof it' like some people make out. 

[BathRam72]

15 hours ago, TomBustler1884 said:

Trying to untangle my thoughts on Rowett at DCFC is difficult at the moment as my opinion changes all the time.

Reasons for Rowett to stay

It is difficult to make him the scapegoat without accepting that the players should be taking a substantial amount of the blame.

The squad is a hodge podge of misfits brought in by a raft of different managers. Difficult to get the right team in place.

We need stability desperately.

We had a fantastic run and he must receive some of the credit for that.

He says the right things.

He signed Davies.

Who would be better?

The summer budget is small and very few players other teams would want to stay.

Reasons for Rowett to go

Our run to 2nd was unsustainable. It was a case of inspired goalkeeping, world-leading clinical goalscoring and unbelievable luck that would never happen all season.

Very few games actually saw exciting attacking play that got fans out of their seats.

Yes we need stability, but there is little proof of Rowett learning, showing adaptability and things have got worse not better since when he took over.

Recent performances are abject - can he motivate the players he is likely to be stuck with next year?

He signed Jerome.

Conclusion

Unless an obviously better candidate comes along, or things change in terms of a positive summer transfer window, I'm not sure there's any point in getting rid. However, the football is woeful, there appears to be mass apathy again. 

I can happily accept a season of consolidation if I can see the direction the club is moving in, we test the likes of Elsnik and we see some positive intent on the pitch, I'm just not convinced Gary is the man to deliver any of that.

So basically, I've no idea what is best to do!!

Although I do agree with some of tour points. I have to say that you hit the nail on the head in your reasons to stay.

Who would be better? Summer budget small. Hodge Podge team over several managers. Good luck and a defence that got us to the dizzy heights of second (well above where we expected to be to be honest) Stability - absolutely.

Not sure that the unsustainable run to 2nd is a reason to get rid though.

The sad thing is that when we were looking for a new manager last season, A lot of people on here were raving over the thought of Gary coming in and pleading Mel for stability.

I am not advocating the style of play but I do think that stability is key to success, change the manager and again another manager picking up a team of mish mash players and adding his own players and the wheel goes round and round.

[WestKentRam]

I'm as equally confused as to what is going on as a lot of others are and am sorry to day I've lost the faith. What wears me down is the pre-match press conference saying we must do this or that, then the match when it doesn't happen, and the post-match press conference saying next match we will change. Repeat to fade.

GR has had a season to get the team playing his way and it isn't easy to watch. When a new manager joins a club then usually their philosophy of tactics and style is evident from early on, often more evident with PL clubs admittedly with better quality players who can adapt more easily.

However I can see we can't keep changing managers with wholesale player clear-outs every season and if I were Mel I'd wonder what I'd got myself into!

[RoyMac5]

19 minutes ago, WestKentRam said:

... and if I were Mel I'd wonder what I'd got myself into!

Yes, what has he got us into. Rowett makes Clough look like Pep!

[derbydaz22]

2 hours ago, clarkeram7 said:

Football is a game of opinions. I actually think we play a better style of football to Clements or Mac2.. This run is obviously horrendous but I'd much rather watch his football than passing sideways for 90minutes. I don't think his style of play is 'hoof it' like some people make out. 

Really?

[WestKentRam]

9 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes, what has he got us into. Rowett makes Clough look like Pep!

I've no idea what the interview process is for new managers, but it's hard to imagine GR set out this style of football in his application. It may be like the press conferences, he sounds believable and there is hope, but just can't affect change and deliver.

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, WestKentRam said:

I've no idea what the interview process is for new managers, but it's hard to imagine GR set out this style of football in his application. It may be like the press conferences, he sounds believable and there is hope, but just can't affect change and deliver.

We all can guess how he set himself out in interview - he talks great, but when it comes to implementing it... *shrug*

[archied]

7 minutes ago, WestKentRam said:

I've no idea what the interview process is for new managers, but it's hard to imagine GR set out this style of football in his application. It may be like the press conferences, he sounds believable and there is hope, but just can't affect change and deliver.

My bet is he set out a style of football where first and foremost his team would be organised and solid at the back and organised without the ball but once we got the ball we attacked with pace and intent rather than play it round slowly with caution ,, in short dynamic and exciting on the ball ,, it’s not a bad watch if you get it right and I’m betting that’s his vision and how he saw it ,,, get it wrong and it’s dire to watch just the same as possession style football is dire to watch if you get it wrong or any style come to that if you get it wrong ,,,,

the problem for me and where I think he’s got it wrong ( or the players or players employed ) is that we have sat further and further back and are trying to win the ball in the wrong area of the park , it’s ok to let the other team have possession in their own to a small degree but even then you have to press and pressure them ,, if you drop back with no pressure on the ball and invite teams on to you then you are asking for trouble and it’s harder to break as your forwards are picking the ball up in totally the wrong area ,,, for me it’s the midfield that lacks energy and pace where it all falls down 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

3 hours ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

For me, I am always looking for continuous improvement.

Example - I remember when we were absolutely mired and looked doomed under George Burley, you could see him slowly dig us out of the cack.

Right now we suck. Sunderland and Burton were absolute bankers and we have blown it.

So of the remaining games I want to see perhaps a win  (Barnsley), I will accept a defeat (Cardiff, Warnock hates us and he will whip up his capable squad), but I want to see two draws - Villa and Boro (home). They are under pressure too and are not as strong as Wolves/Cardiff.

That would be 5 out of a possible 12 points. Relegation form, but would be an improvement on the current state.

And yes, I am depressed typing this.

I thought it was quite optimistic.

[TomBustler1884]

Another thought on this.

Mel has said this is the squad for next year, they're good enough, don't expect many changes.

Fans have said massive clear out needed.

Rowett has openly questioned their desire to achieve promotion and publicly criticised their play in recent weeks.

If Mel is being honest, and there is no money for changes, why the hell would anybody think things will improve next year based on the statements from Rowett? He doesn't believe in them, so why would things change under him?

My point is, if there is the opportunity to shape the squad, then maybe Rowett should be given more time.

If there isn't, is he the man to turn things around or should we be looking at more of a head coach style, training expert. (Not Mac, never go back.)

If we miss out on playoffs, and the budget is limited, I think Rowett is gone. If either of those aspects change, I think he will stay with a massive caveat of performances must improve.

[WestKentRam]

It may have just come down to GR having relative success at Burton and Birmingham, and given his history with Derby and being local and enthusiastic to achieve with the team then him seeming a natural fit.

I live in hope that it will come together, but am not optimistic given GR's statements on results being more important than performances. When you consistently have neither then there is a problem.

[Rample]

5 hours ago, Andicis said:

So, I want to continue on from @Millenniumram 's post on stability, because I thought it was an excellent one.

Looking back for the past 6 years, and looking at the teams that got promoted from each:

2011/12 - Promoted: Reading, Southampton, West Ham United. Of these, Reading had McDermott for a year before, it was his second full season. Southampton who had Nigel Adkins on his second full season. West Ham had Sam Allardyce on his first full season for the club. So clearly for this year, stability was the name of the game, no changes in management mid season.

2012/13 - Promoted: Cardiff, Hull City and Crystal Palace. Of these, Cardiff had Malky Mackay, in his second season in charge. Hull City had Steve Bruce who they appointed that summer. Crystal Palace, who began the season with Dougie Freedman, who left in October, before Ian Holloway was hired in November. To conclude 2012/13, Palace achieved promotion with instability, but they didn't finish in the automatics and only finished 5th in the table.

2013/14- Promoted: Leicester City, Burnley, QPR . Leicester obviously had Nigel Pearson for the entire season. Burnley had Dyche for the full season. QPR had Redknapp all year. Again, a case for stability on the pitch (obviously QPR isn't a good example for stability on a club level, but on the pitch they had it this year).

2014/15 - Promoted: Bournemouth, Watford, Norwich. Bournemouth had Eddie Howe for the full season. Watford had a lot of instability. They started the season with Beppe Sannino, who left on the 31 of August. Followed by Oscar Garcia, who lasted 27 days from the 2 of September to the 29th of September and after that, on the 7th of October, they hired Slavisa Jokanovic who lasted until the end of the season. Norwich had Neil Adams until the 5th of January, and then appointed Alex Neil from the 9th of January till the end of the season. To summarise for this season, it was full of instability at the top.

15/16 - Promoted: Burnley, Boro, Hull City. Burnley obviously still have Sean Dyche. Boro had Aitor Karanka for the full season. Hull still had Steve Bruce. Not a lot to comment on this year, a pinnacle of managerial stability, apart from the wobble Karanka had when he threatened to walk out.

16/17 - Promoted: Newcastle, Brighton HA, Huddersfield Town. Newcastle had Rafa Benitez all year. Brighton had Chris Hughton since 2014, but stuck by him in a tough patch. Huddersfield Town had David Wagner since 2015. 

Overall view: If we're looking at teams going for promotion, not changing your manager inside a season seems to be pretty critical, teams who got promoted changing their manager in the recent past are anomalies and not rules. However, I certainly think there is a case for getting rid of Rowett at the end of the season and giving a new manager a fresh start and a transfer window to push into next season. However, changing him now might kill our chances of promotion, I'm still Rowett out, but he should get the rest of the season to stabilise us and then if he hasn't proven himself, make the necessary changes at the end of the year.

Whilst I do agree with the sentiment, have preached the need for stability, and like pretty much everyone else said it would take Rowett 3 transfer windows to put his stamp on the squad, but how long can you wait for the outcome, do you stick with someone until their contract is up and decide then? do you wait until you're flirting with relegation to make a change? or do you stick until things go right?

We can see what Rowett is trying to do, and you build into your opinion how likely it is to succeed based on progress and reaction, and if we were starting to play well then it's easier to advocate the status quo, but when form is based a good deal on luck and the likelihood is things won't improve substantially, for me you make that change now and allow for someone with a better vision to try rather than decide six months down the line you should do that and write off yet another season.

What doesn't feature in terms of the above are the variables such as team quality and money spent (as a whole or by that manager), spirit inherited, and whether they were expected promotion candidates based on these factors along with the previous season's form. Therefore I don't think you can really argue that proceeding with the relative stability of what we have now is the key thing and Rowett is the best/only option.

Stability yes, but under someone else please.

[Animal is a Ram]

I have to admit I'm starting to lose faith in GR - but equally as much in the players, and staff at DCFC.

That being said, I fear some are suffering short memories. Can people honestly say the football under Clough was much better than this? Yes, yes, it's been done to death - he did well with his hands tied, steadied the ship etc etc. 

Our biggest mistakes have been sacking a manager only for his successor to be in a completely different philosophy. We have players from 5 different managers now. Sack Rowett, get someone else in, and it will be 6. It's just not sustainable.

[Tamworthram]

3 hours ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

For me, I am always looking for continuous improvement.

Example - I remember when we were absolutely mired and looked doomed under George Burley, you could see him slowly dig us out of the cack.

Right now we suck. Sunderland and Burton were absolute bankers and we have blown it.

So of the remaining games I want to see perhaps a win  (Barnsley), I will accept a defeat (Cardiff, Warnock hates us and he will whip up his capable squad), but I want to see two draws - Villa and Boro (home). They are under pressure too and are not as strong as Wolves/Cardiff.

That would be 5 out of a possible 12 points. Relegation form, but would be an improvement on the current state.

And yes, I am depressed typing this.

Villa won't be under pressure. They have already secured a play off place and top two will be out of reach by the time we play them. Not sure if that will work in our favour or not.

Not still not quite a must win game but Saturday could be critical. Tall order but, if we could win and somehow get a draw against Cardiff, I reckon that would mean, although it could come down to goal difference, we would go into the Barnsley game needing to just win it and not rely on others even if we lose at Villa.

I can see it now, playing out of skins against Boro and Cardiff but flopping against Barnsley.

So, 7 points should do it (provided 3 of them come against Boro) but 4 or 5 points is probably more realistic. 

[RoyMac5]

45 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

Our biggest mistakes have been sacking a manager only for his successor to be in a completely different philosophy. We have players from 5 different managers now. Sack Rowett, get someone else in, and it will be 6. It's just not sustainable.

Our biggest mistake is appointing poor managers.

[archied]

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Our biggest mistake is appointing poor managers.

Poxy clement was the biggest mistake and it’s just snowballed from there ,, my bet is clement was Sam Rush s pushed for choice 

[RiddingsRam]

9 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Our biggest mistake is appointing poor managers.

Change the record .

[RoyMac5]

23 minutes ago, RiddingsRam said:

Change the record .

OK why do we need a manger, they're over-rated, just let Mel do it all, couldn't be any worse.