GR - stick or twist

[RoyMac5]

5 minutes ago, Wignall12 said:

...etc    WHAT HAPPENED TO STABILITY ? 

It's over-rated!

[JaguarRam]

 

Stick or Twist?

[RamNut]

we needed to move players like baird and bent and build a young team around Will. But it started to go wrong last season when gary wouldn't pick Will and spoke of the "slow deaf" of the team. There was zero creativity by the last game of the season. A lack of cutting edge was further exacerbated by a somewhat demotivating comments.

instead of making us more creative, we seem to have been made even worse. I can't imagine any talented player coming to the end of their contract actually wanting to stay. There is an urgent need to lift the club, but we have acquired more 30 somethings to add to baird and bent. Instead of moving towards a solution we seem to be digging a bigger hole for ourselves.

So far Gary hasn't really done anything to impress and secure his position.

[EssendonRam]

On 28/09/2017 at 19:14, Spanish said:

just one more obviously

just ignore it if it causes offence, I'm genuinely interested and all the other threads do not contain comments related to what would change their minds

happy reading

To be fair to you, I would have thought it's a very different subject to those which have been calling for GR's head and I think some of the responses already have shown that...and I am very much in the 'You can't seriously believe changing the manager AGAIN will help anyone?!?" school of thought.

For mine, nothing short of criminality or death/disablement is the answer. We, the club, have made our bed and, for the sake of credibility, we HAVE to give this guy the opportunity to fail. He needs at least four full transfer windows in my view to remould the side; three (ie by the start of next season) to move out those who aren't part of the Rowett model and to replace them with his choice of players, then the January 2019 window to put the finishing touches to the squad to seriously challenge for promotion in 2019-20, if not 2018-9.

That stands, relegation battles or not. It simply has to.

[Carnero]

24 minutes ago, JaguarRam said:

 

Stick or Twist?

What's brown and sticky?

A stick.

[Pearl Ram]

Nah, it's What do you call a boomerang that won't come back ?

A stick.

[EssendonRam]

4 minutes ago, Saul Pimpson said:

What's brown and sticky?

A stick.

I thought you were going to say 'our style of play' ?...which would be very unkind.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

12 minutes ago, EssendonRam said:

To be fair to you, I would have thought it's a very different subject to those which have been calling for GR's head and I think some of the responses already have shown that...and I am very much in the 'You can't seriously believe changing the manager AGAIN will help anyone?!?" school of thought.

For mine, nothing short of criminality or death/disablement is the answer. We, the club, have made our bed and, for the sake of credibility, we HAVE to give this guy the opportunity to fail. He needs at least four full transfer windows in my view to remould the side; three (ie by the start of next season) to move out those who aren't part of the Rowett model and to replace them with his choice of players, then the January 2019 window to put the finishing touches to the squad to seriously challenge for promotion in 2019-20, if not 2018-9.

That stands, relegation battles or not. It simply has to.

Four Windows,four bloody Windows?

Bloody hell.

Are you some sort of immortal,with time on your hands?

Shouldn't you be out fighting other blokes in car parks with big swords or something?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EssendonRam]

1 minute ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Four Windows?

Bloody hell.

Are you some sort of immortal with time on your hands?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately not. Very much have a definite limit and, with my current luck, we'll turn the corner just when I can no longer remember things...but long-term, there's only one way to go.

[EssendonRam]

On 28/09/2017 at 21:46, G STAR RAM said:

Agree with most but can't agree with the players are not good enough.

To a man we have players that have all achieved more and played consistently at higher levels than the level they are currently playing at.

They may all have different skills sets to what is required in the here and now but to say they are not good enough could not be further away from the truth in my opinion.

Individually, that is the case but, as a collective, is the team good enough? They've failed under successive managers; they've shown themselves to be resistant to developing any alternative strategies.

Only under Mac has this not been the case and even Mac, the manager who knows most of this squad best, said that it was time to concede and rebuild.

[curb]

19 minutes ago, EssendonRam said:

To be fair to you, I would have thought it's a very different subject to those which have been calling for GR's head and I think some of the responses already have shown that...and I am very much in the 'You can't seriously believe changing the manager AGAIN will help anyone?!?" school of thought.

For mine, nothing short of criminality or death/disablement is the answer. We, the club, have made our bed and, for the sake of credibility, we HAVE to give this guy the opportunity to fail. He needs at least four full transfer windows in my view to remould the side; three (ie by the start of next season) to move out those who aren't part of the Rowett model and to replace them with his choice of players, then the January 2019 window to put the finishing touches to the squad to seriously challenge for promotion in 2019-20, if not 2018-9.

That stands, relegation battles or not. It simply has to.

For the sake of credibility?

In the eyes of who?

Are you scared that everyone will be sniggering at us behind our back if we sack Rowett?

Heres the rub, we spend money and don't go up, other fans laugh at us. We don't spend money and don't go up, other fans laugh at us. We get rid of Rowett, bring someone else in, we don't go up, other fans laugh at us. We give Gary four years, we don't go up, other fans laugh at us.

Fans of clubs laugh at other clubs whatever happens, who cares?

If in two years we've been through another ten managers and the eleventh one takes us up, they stop laughing.

[EssendonRam]

17 minutes ago, curb said:

For the sake of credibility?

In the eyes of who?

Are you scared that everyone will be sniggering at us behind our back if we sack Rowett?

Heres the rub, we spend money and don't go up, other fans laugh at us. We don't spend money and don't go up, other fans laugh at us. We get rid of Rowett, bring someone else in, we don't go up, other fans laugh at us. We give Gary four years, we don't go up, other fans laugh at us.

Fans of clubs laugh at other clubs whatever happens, who cares?

If in two years we've been through another ten managers and the eleventh one takes us up, they stop laughing.

I couldn't give a tish if other fans snigger at us. I live in Australia and, generally, those who've heard of us know of us because of 2007-8, or because they've mispronounced our name and been corrected by someone like myself.

I have literally been pointed at and sniggered at by strangers for wearing a Derby shirt.

So credibility with whom? Try prospective managers, prospective players, prospective juniors, and prospective staff. How long will it be until our ability to recruit anyone other than journeymen is hindered by a reputation for panicking and being unable to stick with any sort of strategy once things turn awry? 

Try EPL clubs who may have a young 'un they want to loan out to a stable program? Do you recall how, under per Mac 1, Derby's ability to nurture EPL talent had us on the radar of several big clubs? Now, they'd have to question if the guy they're dealing with will still be around at Xmas, let alone wonder what sort of squad and style we're trying to develop.

Try sponsors? Need I explain?

And, most importantly, try US?

How long do you HONESTLY believe that changing managers at the first sign of things not going to plan will continue to deliver hope? We've not given our "long term appointments" more than half a season three seasons in a row if we move on Rowett.

[1967Ram]

On 28/09/2017 at 22:03, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

We aren't playing any brand of football yet are we?....it's not Waitrose or Sainsbury's at the minute,although there is a hint of farmfoods about us,stuff everywhere and in no discernable order.

And yes,if no improvement,this matter will be resolved by Mel himself by the end of that run.

 

More like pigswill!!

[1967Ram]

Stick, be stable and sXXX

Twist and have a chance of something better? 

[Spanish]

2 hours ago, EssendonRam said:

To be fair to you, I would have thought it's a very different subject to those which have been calling for GR's head and I think some of the responses already have shown that...and I am very much in the 'You can't seriously believe changing the manager AGAIN will help anyone?!?" school of thought.

For mine, nothing short of criminality or death/disablement is the answer. We, the club, have made our bed and, for the sake of credibility, we HAVE to give this guy the opportunity to fail. He needs at least four full transfer windows in my view to remould the side; three (ie by the start of next season) to move out those who aren't part of the Rowett model and to replace them with his choice of players, then the January 2019 window to put the finishing touches to the squad to seriously challenge for promotion in 2019-20, if not 2018-9.

That stands, relegation battles or not. It simply has to.

Thanks firm beliefs clearly articulated.  Starting to lose faith given that I start to see an element of desperation in selections and tactics.  I can see some potential benefits on relegation as allowed to  a long relegation battle but I would twist if we were relegated.  Otherwise I would give him the chance until the end of the season, whether he will get that is another matter.  As for other fans, fook em.  Easy to say where I live nobody cares about DCFC apart from my florist work mate!

[EssendonRam]

2 hours ago, Spanish said:

Thanks firm beliefs clearly articulated.  Starting to lose faith given that I start to see an element of desperation in selections and tactics.  I can see some potential benefits on relegation as allowed to  a long relegation battle but I would twist if we were relegated.  Otherwise I would give him the chance until the end of the season, whether he will get that is another matter.  As for other fans, fook em.  Easy to say where I live nobody cares about DCFC apart from my florist work mate!

I get where you're coming from in terms of desperation, etc but we have to address the starting point Rowett had. Someone earlier said that they had no idea what Pearson was trying to do but, to be frank, that has to be nonsense.

Pearson concluded too early or too late (depending on your perspective) that the squad needed serious deconstructing, before building again from the remnants a side in his own model. The problem, of course, was the players' length of contracts (and options in their favour, we later learned), together with their high wages, gave them the ability to stonewall.

In doing so, he was stupid enough to presume that he had the Chairman's unequivocal support if the squad essentially refused to play for him which, of course, they virtually did. 

That position, almost by definition, meant writing the season off unless Pearson somehow managed either to crush the squad's recalcitrance or win them over. Those outcomes were as likely as Mel not losing his cool when told to pull his bald head out of his proverbial and smell the garden....

But Rowett inherited the same problem. How do you deconstruct a squad which, contractually, still had the ability to stonewall moving players out.

We're stuck in the worst 'no man's land' of all for a football club. We have made the decision to move on a substantial part of the squad but are inhibited by their contractual situations until at least the end of this season.

So Rowett, like Pearson, is stuck for the time being with a number of players who don't fit within his preferred model and who've shown themselves to be less than adaptable to other styles of play under a succession of managers. Extricating ourselves from this position was always going to be delicate.

That's the reality.

One suspects, sadly for Rowett, that the pressure of expectations is already beginning to get to him. A not-insubstantial minority of fans are already baying for his blood after ten matches...and it started in the first few weeks.

All the lessons we'd seemingly learned the hard way - "the players have failed under successive managers" and the like - which should have buttressed his position gave him only a few matches into the new season.

And, just in case anyone needs it spelled out again, Rowett is a relatively young and inexperienced manager who will have to grow into the job and learn from his mistakes.

Sound familiar at all?

Part of the problem, to be quite honest, is people (like myself) who would not have sacked McLaren on either occasion but that ship has sailed and won't be coming back...at least not while Mel holds 50%+1 or more of the club.

As for the fans, I don't say fkem but I will say, "if you love Derby County, then you have to show patience while we first extricate ourselves from this predicament so we can build again. There are no magic wands (as someone else said earlier) and no immediate fixes. This season and next have to be about building a squad that will challenge for the Premiership in 2020 (earlier is a bonus) and, when we get there, reach it in such a state that we can sustain Premiership status."

And, yes, those last words hurt because I do believe that the squad which lost the playoff final should have formed the core of precisely that.

But we, as a club, blew that for countless reasons, one of which was impatience and perhaps a sense of entitlement (again, sound familiar?). Now we clear away the debris and start again. While it sounds horribly like deja vu from 2008-9, we are starting from a far better position than 2008-9.

What took five years then will hopefully only take one or two seasons. But we have to take our medicine and (to use what might be a peculiarly Australian expression) STICK FAT.

To do otherwise will only draw out the pain.

[Van der MoodHoover]

@EssendonRam - excellent well argued posts.

For me, he should have his contract period,  unless he does anything illegal.

Quite like the idea of giving him a better /wiser/more experienced #2 but please God not 'arry. 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

3 hours ago, EssendonRam said:

I get where you're coming from in terms of desperation, etc but we have to address the starting point Rowett had. Someone earlier said that they had no idea what Pearson was trying to do but, to be frank, that has to be nonsense.

Pearson concluded too early or too late (depending on your perspective) that the squad needed serious deconstructing, before building again from the remnants a side in his own model. The problem, of course, was the players' length of contracts (and options in their favour, we later learned), together with their high wages, gave them the ability to stonewall.

In doing so, he was stupid enough to presume that he had the Chairman's unequivocal support if the squad essentially refused to play for him which, of course, they virtually did. 

That position, almost by definition, meant writing the season off unless Pearson somehow managed either to crush the squad's recalcitrance or win them over. Those outcomes were as likely as Mel not losing his cool when told to pull his bald head out of his proverbial and smell the garden....

But Rowett inherited the same problem. How do you deconstruct a squad which, contractually, still had the ability to stonewall moving players out.

We're stuck in the worst 'no man's land' of all for a football club. We have made the decision to move on a substantial part of the squad but are inhibited by their contractual situations until at least the end of this season.

So Rowett, like Pearson, is stuck for the time being with a number of players who don't fit within his preferred model and who've shown themselves to be less than adaptable to other styles of play under a succession of managers. Extricating ourselves from this position was always going to be delicate.

That's the reality.

One suspects, sadly for Rowett, that the pressure of expectations is already beginning to get to him. A not-insubstantial minority of fans are already baying for his blood after ten matches...and it started in the first few weeks.

All the lessons we'd seemingly learned the hard way - "the players have failed under successive managers" and the like - which should have buttressed his position gave him only a few matches into the new season.

And, just in case anyone needs it spelled out again, Rowett is a relatively young and inexperienced manager who will have to grow into the job and learn from his mistakes.

Sound familiar at all?

Part of the problem, to be quite honest, is people (like myself) who would not have sacked McLaren on either occasion but that ship has sailed and won't be coming back...at least not while Mel holds 50%+1 or more of the club.

As for the fans, I don't say fkem but I will say, "if you love Derby County, then you have to show patience while we first extricate ourselves from this predicament so we can build again. There are no magic wands (as someone else said earlier) and no immediate fixes. This season and next have to be about building a squad that will challenge for the Premiership in 2020 (earlier is a bonus) and, when we get there, reach it in such a state that we can sustain Premiership status."

And, yes, those last words hurt because I do believe that the squad which lost the playoff final should have formed the core of precisely that.

But we, as a club, blew that for countless reasons, one of which was impatience and perhaps a sense of entitlement (again, sound familiar?). Now we clear away the debris and start again. While it sounds horribly like deja vu from 2008-9, we are starting from a far better position than 2008-9.

What took five years then will hopefully only take one or two seasons. But we have to take our medicine and (to use what might be a peculiarly Australian expression) STICK FAT.

To do otherwise will only draw out the pain.

So be it...

[Angry Ram]

On 28/09/2017 at 10:24, RoyMac5 said:

 

I'd stick rather than twist if there was a change in Gary's backroom staff - I'm not convinced they're good enough nor are they providing good enough back up for GR. Think Simmo and Steele for Mac, they are quality. Plus if there was a more positive attitude to games ie the opposition should worry about us firstly!

But that ain't gonna happen, is it? 

Interesting point.. I am sure they are Gary's mates so doubtful anything will change. 

The whole match day process is amateur now. Under Clement the prematch warm up was really professional, Karanka at Boro had a very similar routine. Now it's piss poor. We've also gone back to hoofing it forward into a channel at the kick off. What is that all about? Never works, just gives the ball away. How much influence does the back room team have though? Surely Gary sets the tone.

[irobinson]

there must be some delusional f&&ckers down at Crystal Palace - I read on one website that Rowett was in a 3 of preferred options for them after they sacked DeBoer.

Seen as the bright youthful english manager

i heard some Birmingham supporters say "Derby must be really pissed off with Rowett" - probably as both teams were utter garbage

just imagined if Palace had come in for him - what would have Mel done - thats a great Q.

if GR is the right man he better step up and get this team going - a win at Cardiff today would make the rest of the championship take note