Jon Toral - signed for Hull City

[Inglorius]

5 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

We finished a strong 3rd place with Russell, Ward, Bamford and Dawkins as our wingers - Whilst I would LOVE to have that combination back now I don't see Russell as the weak link in that 4 and I don't see him as anything but the best of our wingers now

If Russell is one of our best wingers it's a savage indictment of the paucity of skills of our existing wingers rather than a glowing endorsement of Russells capabilites.

[Sexydadbod]

Just now, CHCDerby said:

When you say he's good in the dressing room, do you mean he's always looking for the one to drop the soap??

"Bend over Johnny, you know what time it is."

[cheron85]

Just now, Inglorius said:

If Russell is one of our best wingers it's a savage indictment of the paucity of skills of our existing wingers rather than a glowing endorsement of Russells capabilites.

Okay then - Let's open it up to the whole league - Name 10 better wingers playing in the Championship this season

[Sexydadbod]

Just now, cheron85 said:

Okay then - Let's open it up to the whole league - Name 10 better wingers playing in the Championship this season

Why should he? It's about opinions and the names he would post you would find a way to criticise them in favour of Russell. I personally don't think that Russell is within the top 20 of wingers in this league but what do I know? 

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

2 minutes ago, McLovin said:

"Bend over Johnny, you know what time it is."

"Here comes Johnny"

[Sexydadbod]

1 minute ago, CHCDerby said:

"Here comes Johnny"

"I will finish a lot more quickly and efficiently than you today on the pitch Johnny you bad, bad boy."

[cheron85]

Just now, McLovin said:

Why should he? It's about opinions and the names he would post you would find a way to criticise them in favour of Russell. I personally don't think that Russell is within the top 20 of wingers in this league but what do I know? 

Dunno - You don't seem willing to express any evidence to support your opinions though

A whole series of professional football managers have considered Russell to be good enough to regularly pick for a promotion challenging side - In a team and a few seasons where we've not exactly been shy at buying players - I appreciate that you have an opinion and it is worth exactly as much as mine, or Rowett's or anyone's - I just think there's a fairly good chance that McClaren, Rowett, Clement and McClaren again have a better knowledge base from which to make that opinion

You probably have a more educated/thoughtful opinion than Nigel Pearson though

[Anag Ram]

I think to balance out the debate a bit we should be realistic about the players who will represent Derby County.

Jon Toral will have flaws in his game. So will Tom Lawrence. These are players other clubs are willing to give up. It won't be long before we bemoan their lack of tracking back and yearning for the days of Russell and Ward.

I have never sought to slag off Johnny Russell. All I would say is that in close games, taking chances is vital. 

I love Johnny's work ethic. He is a player of the people.  But I would prefer a finisher, perhaps with JR to come off the bench and help protect a lead.

[Sexydadbod]

6 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

Dunno - You don't seem willing to express any evidence to support your opinions though

A whole series of professional football managers have considered Russell to be good enough to regularly pick for a promotion challenging side - In a team and a few seasons where we've not exactly been shy at buying players - I appreciate that you have an opinion and it is worth exactly as much as mine, or Rowett's or anyone's - I just think there's a fairly good chance that McClaren, Rowett, Clement and McClaren again have a better knowledge base from which to make that opinion

You probably have a more educated/thoughtful opinion than Nigel Pearson though

The same can be applied to Nick Blackman though, Clement, Redknapp, Pearson, Powell and Rowett have all said he's got a lot of untapped potential but he gets slagged off all the time on here and by Derby fans in general yet let Russell off. For what it's worth, I don't hate Russell, I think that he gets away with so much from Derby fans because he "works hard", I wouldn't be bothered if the players were given equal treatment by the fans.

[Inglorius]

3 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

Dunno - You don't seem willing to express any evidence to support your opinions though

A whole series of professional football managers have considered Russell to be good enough to regularly pick for a promotion challenging side - In a team and a few seasons where we've not exactly been shy at buying players - I appreciate that you have an opinion and it is worth exactly as much as mine, or Rowett's or anyone's - I just think there's a fairly good chance that McClaren, Rowett, Clement and McClaren again have a better knowledge base from which to make that opinion

You probably have a more educated/thoughtful opinion than Nigel Pearson though

The only point I highlight on your post is quite rightly you state that the managers you mentioned picked Russell in promotion challenging sides, non of which ultimately were good enough to gain promotion.  Let's not mix up the attributes of tracking back, work ethic etc with those of quality and skill. 

[rynny]

21 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Let's hope not. He tries but ultimately not good enough, like some others in the team. He's probably kept around these days because he's good in the dressing room. If he doesn't leave this summer, he most likely will in January because his contract expires next year so we will lose him on a free.

Russell has 2 seasons where he has scored 9 goals, I compared with other players who had played wide, according to whoscored.com, and had a look to see how often players had bettered that from out wide since Russell has been here. Want to guess how many players?

[Sexydadbod]

Just now, rynny said:

Russell has 2 seasons where he has scored 9 goals, I compared with other players who had played wide, according to whoscored.com, and had a look to see how often players had bettered that from out wide since Russell has been here. Want to guess how many players?

Rynny, as I've said many times, I think it's important to not dwell on past achievements but go on what we currently can see. In football, things can change so quickly and players can decline in an instant, we all remember what happened to Fernando Torres. He went from being the best striker in the world to being poor overnight and there are many other examples of world class players falling like Casillas so it's not beyond the relms that a player like Russell can also decline quickly if those great players did. 

When judging players, I go off what I have seen within the last year and from that and from attending many matches, Russell doesn't look like the player we used to love anymore. His stats and performances from last season were embarrassing.

[cheron85]

4 minutes ago, McLovin said:

The same can be applied to Nick Blackman though, Clement, Redknapp, Pearson, Powell and Rowett have all said he's got a lot of untapped potential but he gets slagged off all the time on here and by Derby fans in general yet let Russell off. For what it's worth, I don't hate Russell, I think that he gets away with so much from Derby fans because he "works hard", I wouldn't be bothered if the players were given equal treatment by the fans.

I say that too

I think Russell is the kind of player we need and is useful in a promotion challenging squad - He gets some goals, he provides some assists, he runs at defenders, he can get in behind defenders, he crosses okay and most importantly he's got a little more skill than the average championship winger

We can't compare him to Ince, Knockaert or Ritchie - That's an unfair comparison - But he's as good as any of the 2nd choice wingers at Brighton, Newcastle or Huddersfield from last season

2 minutes ago, Inglorius said:

The only point I highlight on your post is quite rightly you state that the managers you mentioned picked Russell in promotion challenging sides, non of which ultimately were good enough to gain promotion.  Let's not mix up the attributes of tracking back, work ethic etc with those of quality and skill. 

See above and previous posts about the quality of wingers from Brighton and Huddersfield - Could probably pick sides from a few seasons ago too

Anya is a "promotion quality" winger btw - In case you were counting - And a couple of the managers mentioned seem to think Russell is better

[RamuelLJackson]

7 minutes ago, Inglorius said:

The only point I highlight on your post is quite rightly you state that the managers you mentioned picked Russell in promotion challenging sides, non of which ultimately were good enough to gain promotion.  Let's not mix up the attributes of tracking back, work ethic etc with those of quality and skill. 

I'm not Russell's greatest fan, but I'm sure you would accept there were plenty of other reasons those teams didn't get promoted. Russell playing for them was a very minor factor.

[DEL]

7 minutes ago, rynny said:

Russell has 2 seasons where he has scored 9 goals, I compared with other players who had played wide, according to whoscored.com, and had a look to see how often players had bettered that from out wide since Russell has been here. Want to guess how many players?

Not many players?

[cheron85]

7 minutes ago, rynny said:

Russell has 2 seasons where he has scored 9 goals, I compared with other players who had played wide, according to whoscored.com, and had a look to see how often players had bettered that from out wide since Russell has been here. Want to guess how many players?

Don't use numbers dude - Just use your eyes - That's legit - No-one could possibly have a biased opinion...

2 minutes ago, McLovin said:

When judging players, I go off what I have seen within the last year and from that and from attending many matches, Russell doesn't look like the player we used to love anymore. His stats and performances from last season were embarrassing.

We finished 9th - With a squad which should have been challenging for promotion - I think there were maybe 3/4 players on the entire squad who weren't an embarrassment last year compared to the level they should be playing at

[Sparkle]

33 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Let's hope not. He tries but ultimately not good enough, like some others in the team. He's probably kept around these days because he's good in the dressing room. If he doesn't leave this summer, he most likely will in January because his contract expires next year so we will lose him on a free.

But he is better than all the rest that we have, wieman anya Blackman have all been brought in at massive expense but are nowhere as good which is a positive for Russell and a negative for our purchasing- at some point Russell will be replaced when someone is better than him and he is currently first choice 

[Sexydadbod]

1 minute ago, cheron85 said:

I say that too

I think Russell is the kind of player we need and is useful in a promotion challenging squad - He gets some goals, he provides some assists, he runs at defenders, he can get in behind defenders, he crosses okay and most importantly he's got a little more skill than the average championship winger

We can't compare him to Ince, Knockaert or Ritchie - That's an unfair comparison - But he's as good as any of the 2nd choice wingers at Brighton, Newcastle or Huddersfield from last season

See above and previous posts about the quality of wingers from Brighton and Huddersfield - Could probably pick sides from a few seasons ago too

Anya is a "promotion quality" winger btw - In case you were counting - And a couple of the managers mentioned seem to think Russell is better

I think many of us are getting a bit muddled here, Johnny can still stick around in the squad because he's good in the dressing room, and not just with the soap ?.

I'd just like an improvement on both wings because I feel that they as a set aren't quite good enough and are all very similar. In 13/14, the reason the wingers played so well is because they all brought something different Dawkins with his link up player, Bamford with his ability to grab a goal from nothing, Ward with his direct running and Russell with a combination. 

Weimann and Russell will be useful in certain games, but I don't think either are good enough to take us any higher than 8th in the table if they are supposed to be our main wingers/inside forwards.

[rynny]

4 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Rynny, as I've said many times, I think it's important to not dwell on past achievements but go on what we currently can see. In football, things can change so quickly and players can decline in an instant, we all remember what happened to Fernando Torres. He went from being the best striker in the world to being poor overnight and there are many other examples of world class players falling like Casillas so it's not beyond the relms that a player like Russell can also decline quickly if those great players did. 

When judging players, I go off what I have seen within the last year and from that and from attending many matches, Russell doesn't look like the player we used to love anymore. His stats and performances from last season were embarrassing.

My point is that he is your typical average Championship winger, when he is at his best there are not many that are better than him. I have been disappointed in the past year or so, bar a few performances towards the end of the season under Rowett. As such I think it is a little to early to write him off completely, just yet, as he does have it in him.

Torres' decline was down to injury, which Liverpool rushed him back and he lost confidence and his sharpness.

5 minutes ago, Derby_EnglandLoyal said:

Not many players?

Quote

Last season only 6 wide players scored more than 9 league goals all season (Knockaert 14, Ince 13, Ritchie 12, Jota 12, Kachunga 11 and Costa 10)

15/16 season no player scored more than 9 goals starting from a wide position (or coming on as a sub) 2 players scored 9 goals, Ince and Russell

14/15 season again only 6 scored more than 9 (Ritchie 15, Sako 14, Antonio 12, Jota 11, Ince 11 and Daryl Murphy 10 not sure why whoscored.com are on about here?!?)

13/14 season one player scored more than 9 goals, Adomah with 12.

Assists Russell has registered 21 in the 4 seasons he has been here. Martin has achieved 21, Bryson 18 (13 of which were in 13/14 season) Ince 15.

 

[Inglorius]

4 minutes ago, RamuelLJackson said:

I'm not Russell's greatest fan, but I'm sure you would accept there were plenty of other reasons those teams didn't get promoted. Russell playing for them was a very minor factor.

Playing devil's advocate here -  how many instances were there when Russell got into a promising position then his final pass was totally wayward or his shot was blazed horribly wide.