jono Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 2 hours ago, feisty said: Hendrick money was all spent last year. And one needs to remember that even before any transfers we are losing money each year on wages alone; i.e. if we may need to sell a player just to cover the wage deficit to remain within financial fair play I confess that has crossed my mind. I don't know how FFP works. But in round pounds we generate 20 million in income versus 30 million in costs. So regardless of anything, 10 million has to come from somewhere. Now how that falls in with the rules I have no idea ! Is it FFP or is Mel's money tree not being so bountiful ?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentRam Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 If Ince does go and Rowett relies on Russell then we are going nowhere. Hopefully he has someone in mind to replace Ince that actually can assist or score Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingsy1884 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 16 minutes ago, SilentRam said: If Ince does go and Rowett relies on Russell then we are going nowhere. Hopefully he has someone in mind to replace Ince that actually can assist or score Weimann....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonesy90 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Selling players for bigger profits is what Derby want to aim towards. The now cliched phrase of "being like a Southampton" have been used throughout Derby's hierarchy over the years of Mel's ownership. Yes, Mel has got cash, but he's a businessman as well and will be aiming to make the club self sufficient - hence his efforts to increase revenue through creating a new website, installing a new restaurant at the stadium and contesting the TV revenues the EFL teams receive. While FFP has been swept under the carpet by Derby for the past few years, it has raised its head more since Gary Rowett has come in. We know the squad is top heavy in terms of players numbers and wages, but Rowett has been particular with his words about transfers out, particularly Hughes. "Every player has a price", "We need to balance the books" and "in the best interests of the club financially" have been phrases used - clearly Rowett has been set a tight financial remit by Mel. Just like all Derby fans, Mel must have thought after that Play Off final against QPR that the club would get promoted within a few years. His gamble/calculated assumption to take the club on and spend heavily to get us over the line, hasn't worked. So for the club to tighten the purse strings again, and sell the most lucrative assets should not be scoffed at. Football IS now business, and with Mel actively saying he wants the club to be self sustainable, I can only see Derby continuing to sell off their best players, a la Southampton, if not to balance the books, but to reinvest in the club following a sensible decision to cash in on players. Ince is the next most valuable asset, therefore, should be considered as the next one out of the door. I don't want him to go, but it makes complete financial sense in the position we are in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BramcoteRam84 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 If you got rid you would struggle to replace like for like, but you could have a system that gets the best out of Martin and Vydra and see them both score 20 goals, then you would be saying Tom who? Or you could keep him and add another 15 goals to the 40 from Martin and Vydra....ok now I'm dreaming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackworthRamIsGod Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Should we be concerned that our better players are actively trying to leave? Or is that normal in football? Hughes clearly forced a move and Ince (through his dad) seems to be touting his availability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomInceOnFire Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said: Should we be concerned that our better players are actively trying to leave? Or is that normal in football? Hughes clearly forced a move and Ince (through his dad) seems to be touting his availability. Players will always be wanting to play premier league football over championship football. When players are pushing for a move to another championship club, that's when we should start to be concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentRam Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 38 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said: Should we be concerned that our better players are actively trying to leave? Or is that normal in football? Hughes clearly forced a move and Ince (through his dad) seems to be touting his availability. I know you are one of the most respected posters on here but do you really think Hughes forced his move? Didn't Rowett come and say they got an offer and he asked Will what he thought? Forcing a move when he signed a contract a few months ago? Obviously you have access to information most of us don't but I didn't see it as him forcing a move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackworthRamIsGod Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 11 minutes ago, SilentRam said: I know you are one of the most respected posters on here but do you really think Hughes forced his move? Didn't Rowett come and say they got an offer and he asked Will what he thought? Forcing a move when he signed a contract a few months ago? Obviously you have access to information most of us don't but I didn't see it as him forcing a move. I'm not the Mackworthram, I am his imposter, living off his glory, hense my name. Maybe he didn't force the move, I hope not, but with Rowett saying had we stood in his way it would have been a very difficult situation, my guess is Hughes was all for the move. As the previous poster says, wanting to move to a premier league club is no surprise, if they demand to move to another champ club that's when we worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 2 hours ago, SilentRam said: If Ince does go and Rowett relies on Russell then we are going nowhere. Hopefully he has someone in mind to replace Ince that actually can assist or score It's no secret that Ince is the more skillful & impactful player overall, their total (direct) contribution to goals in the previous 3 seasons stands at Russell 38, Ince 52 (4.7 goals per season difference) however your insinuation that Russell can't/doesn't provide assists wheras Ince does is wrong. @Warren Hobhead pointed out on the Butterfield thread that Russell actually had a pretty productive 2014/15 season. He & Ince both got 8 assists that season (neither player has managed more than this in a season), combining this figure from the past 3 seasons shows that Russell has actually directly assisted 5 more goals than Ince has, with fewer minutes on the pitch. The flip side of that is that over the same period Ince has scored (a considerable) 19 goals more than Russell, and Ince's passing is far more accurate. That said, we tend to form the majority of our attacks down the right hand side of the pitch, give Ince a free role & encourage him to shoot on sight - our tactical approach makes him our main outlet, so it's hardly a surprise that his statistics end up in a more impressive state. Considering the amont of the ball Ince sees, setting up others with genuine chances to score is still the weakest part of his game. 6 assists last season was good in comparison to the rest of the team, but 28 players ended up with more; even taking onto consideration chances he created whch were missed, he wouldn't be much higher up that list. (This is of course all tempered by the variables and subsequent unreliability of the assist statistic) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 1 minute ago, Coconut said: It's no secret that Ince is the more skillful & impactful player overall, their total (direct) contribution to goals in the previous 3 seasons stands at Russell 38, Ince 52 (4.7 goals per season difference) however your insinuation that Russell can't/doesn't provide assists wheras Ince does is wrong. @Warren Hobhead pointed out on the Butterfield thread that Russell actually had a pretty productive 2014/15 season. He & Ince both got 8 assists that season (niether player has managed more than this in a season), combining this figure from the past 3 seasons shows that Russell has actually directly assisted 5 more goals than Ince has, with fewer minutes on the pitch. The flip side of that is that over the same period Ince has scored (a considerable) 19 goals more than Russell, and Ince's passing is far more accurate. That said, we tend to form the majority of our attacks down the right hand side of the pitch, give Ince a free role & encourage him to shoot on sight - our tactical approach makes him our main outlet, so it's hardly a surprise that his statistics end up in a more impressive state. Considering the amont of the ball Ince sees, setting up others with genuine chances to score is still the weakest part of his game. 6 assists last season was good in comparison to the rest of the team, but 28 players ended up with more, and it pales in comparison to the totals that some players elsewhere have come up with in the same time frame. (This is of course all tempered by the variables and subsequent unreliability of the assist statistic) Interesting points, certainly contrary to my prior beliefs on Russell. Russell clearly has been productive, in that time frame, albeit not been performing so well this season. We do have to question the reason we opt to attack down the right, maybe that's a factor of Ince being there, and being a more reliable winger, rather than just a generic play style of the team? It's certainly the case that Russell does suffer being put on the other wing, which doesn't suit his preferred style, of being able to cut in on his left. However, away from the statistics, I believe Ince certainly has a better first touch, Russell's can sometimes let him down. I also believe, composure wise Ince is superior. I can't provide a stat to show this, however I would have much greater trust in Ince in a one on one situation than Russell, as a believe the former would be more likely to keep their head. I agree with you, the point that Russell doesn't assist, or provide an outlet in the wing is wrong. People have taken it to such extremes on our wingers, that it is a polarising topic. The way I see it, is both Russell and Ince are good wingers. Ince is the teams main attacking focal point in many games this season, whereas Russell plays a more supportive role, doing a lot of the unnoticed work. I certainly think at times Russell has had some good positional play to cover a fullback. I agree with your points on Ince not having many assists, for the role he plays in the team, it's certainly something to factor in, however, as you acknowledge, the unreliablity of the assist statistics does but some questions into this. For example, I don't think it's factoring in key passes, which may make Ince's stats look more favorably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 I don't know how you managed to write and post all of that so quickly, but I'd agree with pretty much all of it. You could make the point on composure in its most simple form by looking at number goals scored, and few would argue. I'm even less fond of the key passes stat than I am of the assist stat when it comes to context. Ince was top of our key passes table, Christie was third and Baird had to settle for a place down in 17th! Using just that stat you could suggest that Christie & Ince is the better pairing down that side when anyone who's actually seen us play would know instinctively that that just isn't true. Tom Ince also had the highest number of shots in the entire division with 129. Our second highest was Butterfield with 63, then Russell on 62. I'm not sure what that tells you, really, other than we gave him the ball a hell of a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 3 hours ago, Coconut said: I don't know how you managed to write and post all of that so quickly, but I'd agree with pretty much all of it. You could make the point on composure in its most simple form by looking at number goals scored, and few would argue. I'm even less fond of the key passes stat than I am of the assist stat when it comes to context. Ince was top of our key passes table, Christie was third and Baird had to settle for a place down in 17th! Using just that stat you could suggest that Christie & Ince is the better pairing down that side when anyone who's actually seen us play would know instinctively that that just isn't true. Tom Ince also had the highest number of shots in the entire division with 129. Our second highest was Butterfield with 63, then Russell on 62. I'm not sure what that tells you, really, other than we gave him the ball a hell of a lot! I don't think Ince could ever be described as an unselfish player. When he's in the zone and he's beaten a player his first instinct is to shoot. That's his natural rhythm. The down side of that is that quite often, others are in better positions and I witnessed a number of occasions last season where Vydra in particular could have had simple tap-ins from an Ince pass which never came, Martin, by contrast, seems more intent on creating chances for others than scoring himself. I would like to see him busting a gut to get on the end of crosses and using his terrific shooting power from outside of the box more often. Of course, if either player had these extra attributes, they would soon be playing at a higher level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete2 Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 Too much detail from Paul Ince. he doesn't have to say anything. he says its between the chairmen of Derby and Huddersfield. Last season Mel said he was p1ssed off about martin going to fulham. Has something changed, and it's now Mel making transfer decisions? Or is Paul Ince talking out his bum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 22 minutes ago, PistoldPete2 said: ...he says its between the chairmen of Derby and Huddersfield. Last season Mel said he was p1ssed off about martin going to fulham. Has something changed, and it's now Mel making transfer decisions? Or is Paul Ince talking out his bum. Not seen where Paul Ince said that about Chairmen, where was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDCAR Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 25 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Not seen where Paul Ince said that about Chairmen, where was it? Today's Daily Mail article... Quote {Paul Ince} "'That is down to the respective chairman Mel Morris and Dean Hoyle to discuss." Huddersfield set to make fresh bid for Derby County winger Tom Ince http://dailym.ai/2tmQQDW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 29 minutes ago, Redcar said: Today's Daily Mail article... Quote {Paul Ince} "'That is down to the respective chairman Mel Morris and Dean Hoyle to discuss." Huddersfield set to make fresh bid for Derby County winger Tom Ince http://dailym.ai/2tmQQDW Ah they've nicked the quote from yesterday's Daily Mirror piece http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/paul-ince-tips-son-tom-10701413 Where they talk about a £3m bid - right ffs! Who said the Mirror have it in for us? Why would we sell him for that sort of money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 guessing that there is nothing in his contract meaning he can force a transfer if a prem club came in for him. i can only see him going for a large upfront fee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamBamFan Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 The £3 million bid is puzzling. It's stupidly low which makes me concerned that they think we might desperate for funds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellafella Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 14 hours ago, PodgeyRam said: You'll probably find that the fans calling Ince sulky and Martin lazy are not the same ones saying Hughes is the best player in a decade. In fact, I would wager that greater appreciation of Ince and Martin lines up with greater appreciation of Hughes ... Absolutely correct. The term "fans" is often used as if Derby fans are an aggregated homogeneous voice; the reality is they are not. Apparently, according to Derby Telegraph poll, the sale of Hughes split Derby fans 50:50. I for one was against the sale. I also don't think Martin is lazy or Ince is lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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