POLL: Chris Martin

[Bris Vegas]

1 minute ago, Ninos said:

Saw this live and love it. Klopp is a different class and can actually coach and implement the theory. Spurs and now Man City are also playing this way. But you're trying to tell us that mclaren gegerpressed?

martin is the very definition of a player that prevents you from playing the Klopp way. Bryson is a klopp type player.

The rest of your point here about Clement has no relevance to the video. Big stretch buddy.

Klopp is basically saying it's easier to get your more dangerous players in better attacking positions via a high press than what it is building from the back via a controlling, possession-based style.

While under McClaren we looked to control games, we certainly adopted a much higher press during his tenure than what we did under Clough, Pearson, Clement and any other Derby manager of the last 15 years.

We scored numerous goals by turning over possession in the final third, and quickly getting bodies forward.

I never said Martin was a Klopp player, but he thrives from us getting the ball into his feet quickly and we often did that via turnovers in the final third.

Go through the goals from the 2013/14 campaign and see how many come from counterattacking situations where we've broken quickly via winning the ball higher up the pitch.

 

 

[Ninos]

9 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Klopp is basically saying it's easier to get your more dangerous players in better attacking positions via a high press than what it is building from the back via a controlling, possession-based style.

While under McClaren we looked to control games, we certainly adopted a much higher press during his tenure than what we did under Clough, Pearson, Clement and any other Derby manager of the last 15 years.

We scored numerous goals by turning over possession in the final third, and quickly getting bodies forward.

I never said Martin was a Klopp player, but he thrives from us getting the ball into his feet quickly and we often did that via turnovers in the final third.

Go through the goals from the 2013/14 campaign and see how many come from counterattacking situations where we've broken quickly via winning the ball higher up the pitch.

 

 

Come on. Bryson and Hughes Thorne and Russell work very hard. Both When we have the ball and when we don't have the ball.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't attribute that to any sort of coaching tactic at Derby but rather the effort of those players. I don't disagree with the point you make but it's sort of basic and obvious that's what happens if you press. The Klopp video illustrates which players do what and where they should press (more so wider etc) but if you superimposed Derby players movement on there you'd be horrified at the difference - and the biggest difference would be Martin just standing still the entire time.

[RiddingsRam]

1 hour ago, Bris Vegas said:

Would you envisage Howard or Rasiak performing to the best of their abilites in a Pearson or Clement team? Martin may not be adaptable to a team which sits deep and doesn't apply a press, but that doesn't make him a bad player.

Benteke was terrible at Liverpool - is he a bad player? He can only play one way and that's thriving on early crosses from wide areas. He doesn't play very well in a team which applies a high press, looks to attack through the middle and focuses more on controlling the game. Yet he's a £30m player.

There are countless number of players who thrive in one particular system or way of playing, and on the flip side perform poorly in a completely different style. Some as good as Ibrahimovic.

 

I didn't say he was a bad player , he's not ! But is he that good that you build an entire system / team around him ? Look what happens when he's injured or out of form . We never performed , there was never a plan b ! 

[Wolfie]

2 hours ago, RiddingsRam said:

I'm a bit on the fence here , because I agree with you that there hasn't been a better performing striker here in 15 years , probably since Dean Sturrigde.  But on the flip side I don't believe Martin is very adaptable to a change in style or shape, unless the rest of the team plays to his strengths he doesn't offer a great deal ! 

I agree. We've done that thing of setting the whole team up to play to one man's strengths and surprise surprise, other teams got wise to it and stopped us. That's why we never had a Plan B under Mac according to many. His inflexibility has been his undoing.

Well, that and referes no longer being fooled by his dying swan impression.

[Curtains]

7 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

Not read all the thread curtains but thought this was a decent post to jump in on. Somebody else might have mentioned it already.

Chris Martin was a lot more than a decent servant to the club. He was arguably the best striker the club has had in a generation and a belting player to boot.

I'm generally a Pearson fan but for me he's made a huge mistake letting Martin and Hendrick leave the club.

Play to Martin and Bryson's strengths and you're guaranteed 30 goals a season.

Martin had two very good seasons at Derby but I just got frustrated watching him of late  .

He just got petulant arguing with referees and throwing himself to the ground looking for free kicks all the time  .

Pearson was looking for a change of direction with the team not just playing the ball into Martin all the time and him holding the ball up and the team playing off him which all became a bit predictable.

Teams had worked us out IMO .

Stop Martin and you stop Derby  

Hey ho it's all about opinions mate and mine aren't always right  

 

 

 

[McRamFan]

Would he want to come back?

[Mostyn6]

Martin's performance and contribution naturally suffered as a result of the whole team performance changing around him.

Those people that can blame Darren Bent for not being suitable, and effecting the performances of defence and goalkeeper in 2015 should perhaps apply consistent logic as to why Martin has been affected.

[rynny]

I like how people say that Martin can't play any other way but were willing to give Pearson time to adapt the team. How does everyone know Martin can not play in a 2? What'sthat based on? Why aren't people prepared to give a striker that is in the top 30 all time goal scorers for us (maybe higher)? 

[Curtains]

9 minutes ago, rynny said:

I like how people say that Martin can't play any other way but were willing to give Pearson time to adapt the team. How does everyone know Martin can not play in a 2? What'sthat based on? Why aren't people prepared to give a striker that is in the top 30 all time goal scorers for us (maybe higher)? 

Like I said to Ronnie Derby wanted to take a different direction to just playing to the feet of Martin and playing off him .

Of late Martin got petulant and frustrated throwing himself to the ground and generally getting mardy trying to win free kicks and that may not have been his fault if he was frustrated at Derbys playing style  .

His scoring rate dried up and he looked fed up. .

Teams thought Stop Martin Stop Derby. 

Pearson was trying to change Derbys playing style but that would of taken at least two more transfer windows  

If Pearson leaves Derby may want Martin back but that might depend on Fulham as they might have the option of buying him after a year for another 6 million or so. 

I like Vydra and  Anya and Pearson would have signed other players soon ie in January. 

[Alph]

Can't believe you're arguing with Ninos, Bris. 

He's got some weird thing over Martin. I wouldn't bother. 

And I completely agree with Curtains. Teams did know we wanted to play in and off Martin. But Clement didn't. And many teams had a hard time stopping it judging by results with him in the side. 

Pearson certainly did make us hard to read. Nobody had a clue what he was trying to do. It must of entered Vydra's head at why the ball was being kicked so high from such a distance. Very sneaky Nigel. 

Whether you want him back or not is irrelevant. You think people would show a bit of respect and gratitude for a bloke who's scored and just as importantly created so many goals.

When was the last time we actually played in our predictable way? Fast, on the deck, into Martin with players going beyond him and any defenders stupid enough to follow him? 

Hull away. Play Off Semi final. A very McClaren like display of pressing and risky attacking. Was probably the best we played since before Martin was injured in 2015. He created a goal, a chance, almost scored and was involved in the Bryson sitter. Bryson himself venturing into the box for the first time since Mac was sacked. 

Hull predicted we'd throw that at them. And they couldn't stop it. 

I can predict how Man City will play, How Spurs and Arsenal will play. It's called a style and system that suits their players rather than chopping and changing and confusing matters. But if they perform at a good level and make small little alterations within their approach then they will win.

I dunno how you can't want Martin in our squad. Baffles me. He's better than Bent!! But whatever. The grass is always greener. "Pearson would have got this team promoted" they said. "Get rid of Wassall".

Oh look! brown grass!

[rynny]

1 minute ago, curtains said:

Like I said to Ronnie Derby wanted to take a different direction to just playing the feet to Martin and playing off him .

Of late Martin got petulant and frustrated throwing himself to the ground and generally getting Marcy trying to win free kicks now that may not have been his fault. .

His scoring rate dried up and he looked fed up. .

Teams thought Stop Martin Stop Derby. 

If Pearson leaves Derby may want Martin back but that might depend on Fulham as they might have the option of buying him after a year for another 6 million or so. 

I like Vydra. 

As a 2 though with Vydra, the defenders will have 2 players to think about, and different in style, if they get tight to Martin we are free to put Vydra through, if they drop off to stop that we can play into Martin's feet and can create the space for Vydra to run into.

I disagree about him becoming petulant, he has played virtually the same way, people saying about him throwing his arms in the air, saying he is mardy, I see it as him wanting to win and letting frustration out. If he is standing up front whilst we are defending and can see defenders making basic errors he is going to get frustrated. If he shows for the ball into his feet and it is a simple 5 yard ball and it goes past him why shouldn't he tell the player passing they are better than that, or if they try and over elaborate ball that just isn't on, like Shackell to Row D, why should he be happy and not show disappointed? How many times have we people posted about Butterfield and Ince having attitude problems and not caring because they don't show emotion?

The trying to win free kicks argument always makes me laugh. I would love to see how may people can put up with the sly kicks, blatant pushes, elbows in the back and head, the kneeing and shirt pulling and stay on their feet and pass the ball accurately to a team mate that Martin puts up with. Yes some times he does go down easier than he should but that is when he hasn't been given a free kick before that he should have been given.

The thing is how many teams have stopped us in the last 3 years when Martin has been playing and we have played 4-3-3? People saying that we have been worked out, yet we still beat more teams than beat us, and how may were saying in a year ago that teams know to put someone on Martin and Thorne, yet they only started 19 games together, this time last year, of which we won 10 drew 5 lost 4. Overall when the 2 have started we have played 44 won 22 drew 11 lost 11, in all competitions, 77 points that would be with 2 games to go in a season. If that is being found out, can we please go back to that?

[rynny]

5 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Can't believe you're arguing with Ninos, Bris. 

He's got some weird thing over Martin. I wouldn't bother. 

And I completely agree with Curtains. Teams did know we wanted to play in and off Martin. But Clement didn't. And many teams had a hard time stopping it judging by results with him in the side. 

Pearson certainly did make us hard to read. Nobody had a clue what he was trying to do. It must of entered Vydra's head at why the ball was being kicked so high from such a distance. Very sneaky Nigel. 

Whether you want him back or not is irrelevant. You think people would show a bit of respect and gratitude for a bloke who's scored and just as importantly created so many goals.

When was the last time we actually played in our predictable way? Fast, on the deck, into Martin with players going beyond him and any defenders stupid enough to follow him? 

Hull away. Play Off Semi final. A very McClaren like display of pressing and risky attacking. Was probably the best we played since before Martin was injured in 2015. He created a goal, a chance, almost scored and was involved in the Bryson sitter. Bryson himself venturing into the box for the first time since Mac was sacked. 

Hull predicted we'd throw that at them. And they couldn't stop it. 

I can predict how Man City will play, How Spurs and Arsenal will play. It's called a style and system that suits their players rather than chopping and changing and confusing matters. But if they perform at a good level and make small little alterations within their approach then they will win.

I dunno how you can't want Martin in our squad. Baffles me. He's better than Bent!! But whatever. The grass is always greener. "Pearson would have got this team promoted" they said. "Get rid of Wassall".

Oh look! brown grass!

The Hull at home league game for the most part as well, Martin bullied Davies and Dawson all game, they didn't know how to play against him.

[cannable]

2 hours ago, Cool As Custard said:

But that is the whole point - the system that suits him has been worked out by other teams! That system did not get us promoted. We are too easy to stop & need to adapt to a way of playing that will get us results on a consistent basis. Just because things aren't going well right now doesn't mean we should go backwards and return to what didn't get us promoted before. Too many people using rose tinted spectacles right now!

Even when Wassall put the 433 that suited him back in place for the second half of last season how many goals did he score? Did it get us promoted? As I keep saying thanks for the memories Chris but every dog has its day, you have had yours and it's time to move on.

We were top when we lost Mascarell and Bent. Nobody worked the system out at all.

4-3-3 is the shape, not the system - Wassall's 4-3-3 had some distinct differences from McClaren's. 

[cannable]

In 45 minutes at the tip of a counter-attacking diamond Martin created two one on ones by lofting it over the top. Isn't that a sign of adapting? 

[Curtains]

39 minutes ago, rynny said:

As a 2 though with Vydra, the defenders will have 2 players to think about, and different in style, if they get tight to Martin we are free to put Vydra through, if they drop off to stop that we can play into Martin's feet and can create the space for Vydra to run into.

I disagree about him becoming petulant, he has played virtually the same way, people saying about him throwing his arms in the air, saying he is mardy, I see it as him wanting to win and letting frustration out. If he is standing up front whilst we are defending and can see defenders making basic errors he is going to get frustrated. If he shows for the ball into his feet and it is a simple 5 yard ball and it goes past him why shouldn't he tell the player passing they are better than that, or if they try and over elaborate ball that just isn't on, like Shackell to Row D, why should he be happy and not show disappointed? How many times have we people posted about Butterfield and Ince having attitude problems and not caring because they don't show emotion?

The trying to win free kicks argument always makes me laugh. I would love to see how may people can put up with the sly kicks, blatant pushes, elbows in the back and head, the kneeing and shirt pulling and stay on their feet and pass the ball accurately to a team mate that Martin puts up with. Yes some times he does go down easier than he should but that is when he hasn't been given a free kick before that he should have been given.

The thing is how many teams have stopped us in the last 3 years when Martin has been playing and we have played 4-3-3? People saying that we have been worked out, yet we still beat more teams than beat us, and how may were saying in a year ago that teams know to put someone on Martin and Thorne, yet they only started 19 games together, this time last year, of which we won 10 drew 5 lost 4. Overall when the 2 have started we have played 44 won 22 drew 11 lost 11, in all competitions, 77 points that would be with 2 games to go in a season. If that is being found out, can we please go back to that?

Good post. 

I don't think it was so much worked out as Teams just deciding to try to Stop Martin play which consequently stopped Derby being a force week in week out. 

To be honest Rynny what happens now will be dependent on the new manager if Pearson goes and Fulhams thoughts on keeping Martin .

I have no idea how Martin would play with Vydra but Wiemann was in Pearsons thoughts before he got injured  .

We do need to look for combinations upfront and if Martin comes back he comes into that equation 

The poll was do you want Martin back   yes or no.

I voted no but if he comes back so be it he's a Derby player still and judging from this poll more than half the fans would welcome it  

 

[rynny]

29 minutes ago, cannable said:

In 45 minutes at the tip of a counter-attacking diamond Martin created two one on ones by lofting it over the top. Isn't that a sign of adapting? 

Also against Watford 2 seasons ago at home in the 2-2, when he was about 30% fit within 5 minutes of being on the pitch behind Bent, he had sent Bent through on goal twice, for Bent to miss both of them.

[cannable]

14 minutes ago, rynny said:

Also against Watford 2 seasons ago at home in the 2-2, when he was about 30% fit within 5 minutes of being on the pitch behind Bent, he had sent Bent through on goal twice, for Bent to miss both of them.

Yeah, you're right, slide rule.

Crap though. No technique. Lazy.

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

I bet Martin is wishing he was back here now Pearson has been suspended.

A fully fit Martin firing on all cylinders, every Derby supporter would want him back, the ones who are saying no got bored of the same thing time and time again.

To be fair to Martin, last season he missed Bryson a lot because it was their link up play that got him a lot of his goals and that IMO is why he was getting frustrated, he just didn't have another runner like Bryson.

[nottingram]

28 minutes ago, cannable said:

Yeah, you're right, slide rule.

Crap though. No technique. Lazy.

Bad influence on all those impressionable lads in the changing room too. And a diver.

[cannable]

13 minutes ago, nottingram said:

Bad influence on all those impressionable lads in the changing room too. And a diver.

Cheater is what I've seen him referred to as!