toddy Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 26 minutes ago, lrm14 said: It's been consistent, in fact he probably would have had more under Clement had he not been injured for a few months. You're also ignoring the goals he's created, which has increased over the past few seasons. I haven't include the corners he has defended as a Derby player, as its really irrelevant. Some want to talk about other parts of his game, that's ok - but at the end of day the biggest part of any strikers game is scoring goals, not assists, not defending set pieces - scoring goals is what its all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 17 minutes ago, toddy said: That is the reason I mentioned it, everybody is talking about Martin did this, did that, we played 4-3-3 in 13/14 blah blah blah We do really need to move on regarding Martin, he was very good a few season back for us, but so was Buxton, Ward etc..... Perhaps people are struggling to move on because, for all the minute we've spent, we're worse? Perhaps everybody realised that all it needed was a tweak and Pearson hit it with a sledgehammer? Perhaps people don't really see what we're supposed to do with the clusterfuck of a squad Clement and Pearaon have left us with? And so, just like Wasall did, people want to see it reeled back in again, bring it as far back as we possibly can and do something with it again. Perhaps people want to see as much of the damage that tactically deficient hedgehog head inflicted rectified. I'd a 30 year old Ward, a goalless Martin, a 32 year old Bucko, Dawkins and even a retired and injured Eustace over everybody we've signed since 2014. Even if it wasn't the same, even if it was ***** (which in all likelihood it would be) you'd still have an idea of the blue-print and be able to build upon it. Right now I have no idea what we need to go forward. The fact we've already resorted to somebody letting Will and Butters off the leash says to me that we're already reverting back. At least if we had that lot back we'd have the blueprint again. We're directionless again. At least getting Martin back would be a sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 1 hour ago, lrm14 said: So? He was absolutely dire at Reading yet we've given him a chance over here and he's looking sharp again. Martin is going through a poor marathon of form but his ability hasn't just disappeared. You're so quick to cast a proven goal scorer away yet we've taken in one who was in a similar situation. Corrected poor "run" of form for you with a more apt noun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 9 minutes ago, cannable said: Perhaps people are struggling to move on because, for all the minute we've spent, we're worse? Perhaps everybody realised that all it needed was a tweak and Pearson hit it with a sledgehammer? Perhaps people don't really see what we're supposed to do with the clusterfuck of a squad Clement and Pearaon have left us with? And so, just like Wasall did, people want to see it reeled back in again, bring it as far back as we possibly can and do something with it again. Perhaps people want to see as much of the damage that tactically deficient hedgehog head inflicted rectified. I'd a 30 year old Ward, a goalless Martin, a 32 year old Bucko, Dawkins and even a retired and injured Eustace over everybody we've signed since 2014. Even if it wasn't the same, even if it was ***** (which in all likelihood it would be) you'd still have an idea of the blue-print and be able to build upon it. Right now I have no idea what we need to go forward. The fact we've already resorted to somebody letting Will and Butters off the leash says to me that we're already reverting back. At least if we had that lot back we'd have the blueprint again. We're directionless again. At least getting Martin back would be a sign. Blooming heck you think Ward is better than Vydra and Anya . He was injured all the time and flattered to decieve . This post is completely over the top for goodness sake. An injured Eustace or Butterfield wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, curtains said: Blooming heck you think Ward is better than Vydra and Anya . He was injured all the time and flattered to decieve . This post is completely over the top for goodness sake. An injured Eustace or Butterfield wow. exaggeration ɪɡˌzadʒəˈreɪʃ(ə)n/ noun a statement that represents something as better or worse than it really is. "it would be an exaggeration to say I had morning sickness, but I did feel queasy" synonyms:overstatement, overemphasis, magnification, amplification, aggrandizement, overplaying, dramatization, overdramatization, enhancement, elaboration, over-elaboration, embellishment, over-embellishment, embroidery, hyperbole, overkill, gilding the lily; More the action of making exaggerations. "he was prone to exaggeration" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Just now, cannable said: exaggeration ɪɡˌzadʒəˈreɪʃ(ə)n/ noun a statement that represents something as better or worse than it really is. "it would be an exaggeration to say I had morning sickness, but I did feel queasy" synonyms:overstatement, overemphasis, magnification, amplification, aggrandizement, overplaying, dramatization, overdramatization, enhancement, elaboration, over-elaboration, embellishment, over-embellishment, embroidery, hyperbole, overkill, gilding the lily; More the action of making exaggerations. "he was prone to exaggeration" what's the matter with you are you ok m8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Clearly I was exaggerating to make a point - but if we did have that lot back you would KNOW what we needed to improve. Taller/fast Martin. Dawkins with goal threat. Fit George. A version of Fozzy who is comfortable on the ball. A faster/calmer version of Bucko. What do we need now? How does this current group go forward? It can't. It has to go backwards first. Be it dismantling the remnents of the old guard and building from the post McClaren signings or vice versa with the odd sprinkling from the newer signings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 45 minutes ago, toddy said: I haven't include the corners he has defended as a Derby player, as its really irrelevant. Some want to talk about other parts of his game, that's ok - but at the end of day the biggest part of any strikers game is scoring goals, not assists, not defending set pieces - scoring goals is what its all about. If goals are what it's all about, why haven't Arsenal signed Ross McCormack? After all, he's scored more goals than Giroud, Walcott and Welbeck combined... Or is it because movement, hold-up play, link-up play, assists, aerial ability, athleticism and numerous other attributes are just as important as being able to stick the ball in the back of the net? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrm14 Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 1 hour ago, toddy said: I haven't include the corners he has defended as a Derby player, as its really irrelevant. Some want to talk about other parts of his game, that's ok - but at the end of day the biggest part of any strikers game is scoring goals, not assists, not defending set pieces - scoring goals is what its all about. Do you honestly think assists are that irrelevant? Seriously now, you can't honestly believe that. 1 hour ago, Ninos said: Corrected poor "run" of form for you with a more apt noun. Wouldn't be a Martin thread without you mate, here's some food for thought. Vydra went from November to April without scoring in the league last season. He scored 3 goals in 31 league appearances, starting 24 games and being on the bench for 7. He scored a few in the cup but his league form was absolutely atrocious. Point is good strikers don't stay bad for long and Vydra had a way worse period at Reading than Martin has so far, yet you rate him so highly. Feel free to correct this posts for 'apt' words as you see fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 22 minutes ago, lrm14 said: Do you honestly think assists are that irrelevant? Seriously now, you can't honestly believe that. Wouldn't be a Martin thread without you mate, here's some food for thought. Vydra went from November to April without scoring in the league last season. He scored 3 goals in 31 league appearances, starting 24 games and being on the bench for 7. He scored a few in the cup but his league form was absolutely atrocious. Point is good strikers don't stay bad for long and Vydra had a way worse period at Reading than Martin has so far, yet you rate him so highly. Feel free to correct this posts for 'apt' words as you see fit. where did i say that vydra was so good? he would not have been my choice and certainly not for 8.5m. Anyway thats why Watford got rid. I don't see the point of playing failing premier league OR failing championship strikers. he may come good though we will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 1 hour ago, Bris Vegas said: If goals are what it's all about, why haven't Arsenal signed Ross McCormack? After all, he's scored more goals than Giroud, Walcott and Welbeck combined... Or is it because movement, hold-up play, link-up play, assists, aerial ability, athleticism and numerous other attributes are just as important as being able to stick the ball in the back of the net? seriously? you're compaing scoring in the premier league vs sscoring in the championship. totally different ball game and you know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 8 hours ago, McLovin said: If Martin was genuinely one of the best players in the league wouldn't he stand out in the Fulham team like Dembele and McCormack did? Genuine question. Fulham fans reckon he isn't even better than Matt Smith. Good players do well no matter what the system is. I'd trust their judgment as they are the "unbiased" ones in this discussion. Yes we have seen that Martin could be useful for us in past seasons, the key word being could, not anymore. A lot of people have this impression that Martin can hold the ball up when in reality he can't, that's one of the weakest aspect of his game, especially when a defender gets touch tight to him. He was at his best when he dropped into little spaces and made flick ons for Bryson to chase. I said this before and I will say this again I doubt Martin will get 10-15 goals in a season again for the rest of his career. He is only 27 but in footballing terms he is in his thirties because of his poor fitness which means he won't improve. Players decline, these things happen, look at Torres and Falcao. Their managers tried all they could to help them get back to the players they were but sadly couldn't. You can't just pin all your hopes on hoping that Martin will get back to the player he was because that's simply not going happen at his age. I'm fine with people praising his past contributions but trying to kid yourself and others that he will get back to his past form will only end in tears because I'm 95% sure it won't happen. You don't seem to grasp that what can work for a player at one club won't at another. Your logic here "If Martin was genuinely one of the best players in the league wouldn't he stand out in the Fulham team" is flawed. Otherwise Vydra is a complete waste of money. And how is it that Deeney and Vardy have looked better in the PL than the Champ. By your logic that's impossible. This bit "He is only 27 but in footballing terms he is in his thirties because of his poor fitness which means he won't improve." What? Why is he unfit? he was the first player back from pre season. He worked at Moor Farm on rest days. Maybe he just expects a certain level of service? Maybe he doesn't want to fight with 2 CB's and hold the ball up for an hour until everyone else gets off the goal line. How is being 27 being 30? Did you never see Zola or Bergkamp play? Chasing loose balls? Or more relevant, Steve Howard. Kinkladze. McGrath? Players turn their careers around all the time. All the time. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. Should we take Reading and WBA fans views on Vydra as gospel like you take your Fulham and Leicester? How did McGoldrick look so good for Ipswich after Forest were glad to be rid? McGoaldrought they laughed. By your logic no player would ever go higher in the pyramid after dropping down. Joe Hart is finished. I mean Butland came here and didn't look as good as Grant. He don't look too bad now. Football like any job is as much about fitting in as much as it is about talent. I don't think Martin is better than McCormack. But he's better than Blackman and Bent. I don't think Wassall is better than Pearson but I know who I'd rather have in charge at Derby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrm14 Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 20 minutes ago, Ninos said: where did i say that vydra was so good? he would not have been my choice and certainly not for 8.5m. Anyway thats why Watford got rid. I don't see the point of playing failing premier league OR failing championship strikers. he may come good though we will see. I was just pointing out that people slate Martin for his current form but ignore the fact that Vydra had a worse run. Things turn around quickly in football, form comes and goes. I thought you rated Vydra extremely highly though, sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 22 hours ago, Ninos said: where did i say that vydra was so good? he would not have been my choice and certainly not for 8.5m. Anyway thats why Watford got rid. I don't see the point of playing failing premier league OR failing championship strikers. he may come good though we will see. Watford 'got rid' as you put it because they have Ighalo, Deeney, Success and co. If we had that strikeforce we wouldn't need Vydra either. He's scored 2 in his last 2 games so maybe give the lad a break, huh! Given Martin's not good enough for you and Vydra neither, who would you have in who'd meet your exacting standards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 14 minutes ago, 86 points said: Watford 'got rid' as you put it because they have Ighalo, Deeney, Success and co. If we had that strikeforce we wouldn't need Vydra either. He's scored 2 in his last 2 games so maybe give the lad a break, huh! Given Martin's not good enough for you and Vydra neither, who would you have in who'd meet your exacting standards? I don't dislike vydra and I think he may come good even great but I think we overpaid and you do too. I was responding to someone was saying Im a huge Vydra lover which isn't the case. (Yet) I don't know but obviously Abraham would have been better but the scouting team needs to look abroad or find a gem. More importantly we need to be rid of all the other forwards in the window Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 playing 4-4-2 with the ex-forest berk for Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertRam Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 Had to vote No, because I would sooner him get more gametime, than bring him back now when we seem to be starting to gel, don't want him to leave however, unless a v g price at Fulham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclej Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 We do play that way anymore. Not only did he lose his form in front of goal, he also lost his touch at holding the ball up. Martin will never play for Derby again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee_derby Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 he hasnt scored for 20 games is it, except for scotland against malta give me a break. it isnt just here but at fullam also, hes a has been now and we have new players that are hungry for us.most wantng him back have slagged him of for months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 3 minutes ago, lee_derby said: he hasnt scored for 20 games is it, except for scotland against malta give me a break. ... And of course those goals don't count. Nor does setting up goals. FWIW while trying to find out how long Vydra went without scoring before we bought him I saw a bit about Shane Long going 20 games without scoring (no goals even international ones!)... #hatersgonnahate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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